Sun King

Anybody heard any news about Sun King? I read in January where Zito said he was pointing him towards the Met Mile, but I haven't seen any works on him.

[The Indomitable DrugS]

Originally Posted by Jax Cajun

I read in January where Zito said he was pointing him towards the Met Mile.

Yes, the goal is to make him the first horse in racing history to go 0-for-25 lifetime in Grade 1 stake races.

A Ruthian like record which will surely stand the test of time!---and hey, he's already over half way there.

Even though he's named after a Beatles song, I now think of him everytime I hear Bon Jovi's Living on a Prayer.

[Gander]

Yes, the goal is to make him the first horse in racing history to go 0-for-25 lifetime in Grade 1 stake races.

LOL!

[Cajungator26]

Originally Posted by The Indomitable DrugS

Yes, the goal is to make him the first horse in racing history to go 0-for-25 lifetime in Grade 1 stake races.

A Ruthian like record which will surely stand the test of time!---and hey, he's already over half way there.

Even though he's named after a Beatles song, I now think of him everytime I hear Bon Jovi's Living on a Prayer.

Thanks to you, I now have that song in my head.

[ShadowRoll]

Originally Posted by The Indomitable DrugS

Yes, the goal is to make him the first horse in racing history to go 0-for-25 lifetime in Grade 1 stake races.

A Ruthian like record which will surely stand the test of time!---and hey, he's already over half way there.

Even though he's named after a Beatles song, I now think of him everytime I hear Bon Jovi's Living on a Prayer.

Sure, he's not the second coming of Secretariat, but who is these days? He usually gives an honest effort, he's still running, and he's earned, I believe, just short of $2 million, but I guess you can always find something to criticize. I've seen him run a couple of times and I look forward to seeing him run again.

[Sightseek]

Originally Posted by ShadowRoll

Sure, he's not the second coming of Secretariat, but who is these days? He usually gives an honest effort, he's still running, and he's earned, I believe, just short of $2 million, but I guess you can always find something to criticize. I've seen him run a couple of times and I look forward to seeing him run again.

Not to mention a mere nose seperated him from Grade 1 victory against Invasor and he was only a head short in the Met Mile.

[SniperSB23]

Originally Posted by Sightseek

Not to mention a mere nose seperated him from Grade 1 victory against Invasor and he was only a head short in the Met Mile.

Which would have made him only the sixth horse in history to win the Met Mile and Whitney in the same calendar year. Can anyone (without cheating) name the first five to do so?

[The Indomitable DrugS]

Originally Posted by SniperSB23

Which would have made him only the sixth horse in history to win the Met Mile and Whitney in the same calendar year. Can anyone (without cheating) name the first five to do so?

Yes, if he didn't put on a dramatic display of hanging in the final yards of both races last year, he'd have swept them.

Criminal Type and In Excess I'm sure of. I'll stab with Kelso, Forego, and Buckpasser for the other three

[The Indomitable DrugS]

Originally Posted by Sightseek

Not to mention a mere nose seperated him from Grade 1 victory against Invasor and he was only a head short in the Met Mile.

Albeit, the winner had a very difficult trip, and the runner-up a dream trip.

[Sightseek]

Originally Posted by The Indomitable DrugS

Albeit, the winner had a very difficult trip, and the runner-up a dream trip.

True, but you'll never see that notation on any stallion ad.

[brockguy]

Originally Posted by The Indomitable DrugS

Yes, the goal is to make him the first horse in racing history to go 0-for-25 lifetime in Grade 1 stake races.

A Ruthian like record which will surely stand the test of time!---and hey, he's already over half way there.

Even though he's named after a Beatles song, I now think of him everytime I hear Bon Jovi's Living on a Prayer.

Norse Dancer's already done it.. 0-25 in G1s..

[POINTGIVEN1985]

i just watched the replay of the whitney 4 times, and i dont see how in anyway invasor got a bad trip.. early on he is off the pace on the rail, jara moves him up sensing he needs to not let jv and flower alley get first jump, he then puts that rival away and holds off sun king, never at any point in the race did he have any trouble or was he more then 3 wide. very good trip in my opinion

[The Indomitable DrugS]

Another with subpar trip handicapping skills.....

[blackthroatedwind]

Originally Posted by POINTGIVEN1985

i just watched the replay of the whitney 4 times, and i dont see how in anyway invasor got a bad trip.. early on he is off the pace on the rail, jara moves him up sensing he needs to not let jv and flower alley get first jump, he then puts that rival away and holds off sun king, never at any point in the race did he have any trouble or was he more then 3 wide. very good trip in my opinion

While perhaps there is something admirable about your enthusiasm, believe it or not, you aren't an expert, and these posts of yours make this more and more apparent. If you would spend less time belaboring your mediocre points, and more time thinking about what the knowledgable posters here have said, you might actually learn something.

Because you do not understand trips and trip handicapping, and thus don't understand why Invasor had a trip that compromised him from running his best race, does not mean he had a good trip. One thing is for sure....Invasor had less than an ideal trip and in fact a tougher one than he had in the Donn.

You're entitled to your opinions but that doesn't elevate them above those around here that have earned credibility.

[NTamm1215]

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

While perhaps there is something admirable about your enthusiasm, believe it or not, you aren't an expert, and these posts of yours make this more and more apparent. If you would spend less time belaboring your mediocre points, and more time thinking about what the knowledgable posters here have said, you might actually learn something.

Because you do not understand trips and trip handicapping, and thus don't understand why Invasor had a trip that compromised him from running his best race, does not mean he had a good trip. One thing is for sure....Invasor had less than an ideal trip and in fact a tougher one than he had in the Donn.

You're entitled to your opinions but that doesn't elevate them above those around here that have earned credibility.

BTW, I actually wanted to ask you something on this topic. We've discussed trip handicapping before, in relation to the Breeders' Futurity and though we might not have completely agreed, I very clearly understood your point and respect it tremendously. Anyway, don't you think trip handicapping is in a way the most subjective type of handicapping in horse racing? I mean figures can't really be disputed, but you being a more intellectual person are able to infer much more from a race than say others. I mean, I've been around horse racing a long time, but you are definitely going to be able to identify things from a race that I won't.

I think, and you kind of allude to this a bit, that most people see trip handicapping as identifying trouble that a horse was in and betting him next time out. That's not nearly all of it though. There are countless others. One that I like is when a speed horse breaks slowly, gets absolutely gunned from there, then tires. He/she often proves to be a good bet next time out with a more consistent trip.

So, I guess I was asking a question there, I'm just interested in your opinion a bit more, as I'm always interested in honing what minute handicapping skills I may have. Thanks in advance.

NT

[blackthroatedwind]

Originally Posted by NTamm1215

BTW, I actually wanted to ask you something on this topic. We've discussed trip handicapping before, in relation to the Breeders' Futurity and though we might not have completely agreed, I very clearly understood your point and respect it tremendously. Anyway, don't you think trip handicapping is in a way the most subjective type of handicapping in horse racing? I mean figures can't really be disputed, but you being a more intellectual person are able to infer much more from a race than say others. I mean, I've been around horse racing a long time, but you are definitely going to be able to identify things from a race that I won't.

I think, and you kind of allude to this a bit, that most people see trip handicapping as identifying trouble that a horse was in and betting him next time out. That's not nearly all of it though. There are countless others. One that I like is when a speed horse breaks slowly, gets absolutely gunned from there, then tires. He/she often proves to be a good bet next time out with a more consistent trip.

So, I guess I was asking a question there, I'm just interested in your opinion a bit more, as I'm always interested in honing what minute handicapping skills I may have. Thanks in advance.

NT

It's a great question and I think you are right about a lot of what you say. It is subjective but also supremely logical. The biggest problem people that don't understand have was correctly pointed out by you...they see trouble and then look to bet that horse the next time it runs. That is yet another recipe for losing.

To me, what people need to do is sort of take the whole trip apart and then put it back together and view it as a whole. The most basic mistake people make involves a horse who is getting a perfect trip, maybe saving ground behind the pace, and he/she has to steady or wait in traffic for room, and then perhaps gets free too late and ends up losing a relatively close race. The initial reaction of " if that horse had gotten out it would have won " may well be true, but it would have won with a perfect trip, and the sound horseplayer would downgrade that performance the next time the horse runs. Instead, they mistakenly upgrade it. Or perhaps I should say substantially upgrade it.

The example you gave may be a good one, though it would depend on the horse and where it was racing and is racing next, but certainly you have pointed out the essense of effective trip handicapping, which is finding horses who's performances were compromised by events during the running of the race. Most of this is often very subtle, often more subtle than the tough trip Invasor had that DrugS correctly pointed out, as it can be about understanding the dynamics of a race and how that helped or hindered the competitors.

Sometimes trips can be as simple as trouble or being wide, assuming the horse still performed well or was severly compromised by a bias, and assuming that trouble did in fact severly hamper them, hopefully in a way that isn't obvious. Because, identifying trouble is fine, but only useful if you can also find a way to use it to make money in the future.

[POINTGIVEN1985]

ok i guess i understand what your saying black... but i have seen alot of races, and i just dont think he got that bad of a trip, why is that a bad thing for me to think that ? i was there live that day and have watched the race 10 times, maybe you can explain to me why the trip was so bad, and help me understand.