Swale....Winning Two Legs of The Triple Crown

[RollerDoc]

I am intrigued about horses that won two legs of the triple crown. The most popular is of course those who won the first two but then lost the Belmont like Smarty Jones, Big Brown, etc. etc.

Then there is the non winner of the Kentucky Derby that comes back and wins the Preakness and Belmont like Afleet Alex in 2005.

I am kind of inquisitive about the other combination. Winning the Kentucky Derby and then losing the Preakness but winning the Belmont. This happened to Swale in 1983. Can somebody who followed Swale offer some history on his races that year? What happened in the Preakness to him? It seems odd to me he would get beat so badly in the Preakness yet win the longer track Belmont so easily.

Also Swale died of a heart attack eight days after winning the Belmont. Heard he was a hell of a horse. Glad he won the top 3yr old, even though his season was over after the Belmont.

[blackthroatedwind]

He walked on the lead in the Belmont.

He was a very good horse but was lost in the shadow of his stablemate Devil's Bag. As a 2YO he had a terrific rivalry with a Fred Hooper horse named Shuttle Jet. He won two Grade 1s as a 2YO and the Florida Derby prior to the Triple Crown.

He would have drowned Big Brown.

[RollerDoc]

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

He walked on the lead in the Belmont.

He was a very good horse but was lost in the shadow of his stablemate Devil's Bag. As a 2YO he had a terrific rivalry with a Fred Hooper horse named Shuttle Jet. He won two Grade 1s as a 2YO and the Florida Derby prior to the Triple Crown.

He would have drowned Big Brown.

Perhaps if Big Brown would have had a horse or stablemate to push him as a two year old and 3 yr. old, then maybe he would be more impressive to his doubters. On paper, in TCs I might give the slight edge to Swale since the Belmont is a more grueling race than the Preakness. Other than that, their accomplishments kind of mirror each other. I don't know how you can accurately say a horse from 25 years ago would have definitely "drowned" Big Brown. Maybe but it cannot be proven.

[blackthroatedwind]

Originally Posted by RollerDoc

Perhaps if Big Brown would have had a horse or stablemate to push him as a two year old and 3 yr. old, then maybe he would be more impressive to his doubters. On paper, in TCs I might give the slight edge to Swale since the Belmont is a more grueling race than the Preakness. Other than that, their accomplishments kind of mirror each other. I don't know how you can accurately say a horse from 25 years ago would have definitely "drowned" Big Brown. Maybe but it cannot be proven.

I can say it because I was around for all the good and great horses that have raced in the last 35 years. I spend my life trying to fairly, and accurately, judge racehorses' relative talents. Some are better than me....and many are worse.....but regardless of that I feel I am more than qualified to make these kinds of comparisons.

Take this for what it's worth, but if instead of being so defensive about any comment that doesn't imply that Big Brown is the second coming of Hindoo, you took the time to really research some top horses from the past ( buy the book Champions from DRF ) you might be surprised at what you discover.

[RollerDoc]

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

I can say it because I was around for all the good and great horses that have raced in the last 35 years. I spend my life trying to fairly, and accurately, judge racehorses' relative talents. Some are better than me....and many are worse.....but regardless of that I feel I am more than qualified to make these kinds of comparisons.

Take this for what it's worth, but if instead of being so defensive about any comment that doesn't imply that Big Brown is the second coming of Hindoo, you took the time to really research some top horses from the past ( buy the book Champions from DRF ) you might be surprised at what you discover.

Just because I am trying to defend Big Brown's record in 2008 and argue against some of the challenges against I feel I don't understand, I in know way think he is the best ever. Until i see him lose a race, I see no reason to not support his accomplishments this year.

I appreciate the book suggestion.

[blackthroatedwind]

Originally Posted by RollerDoc

Just because I am trying to defend Big Brown's record in 2008 and argue against some of the challenges against I feel I don't understand, I in know way think he is the best ever. Until i see him lose a race, I see no reason to not support his accomplishments this year.

I appreciate the book suggestion.

I guess you slept through June 7th.

[westcoastinvader]

Also Swale died of a heart attack eight days after winning the Belmont. Heard he was a hell of a horse. Glad he won the top 3yr old, even though his season was over after the Belmont.



And if you really like the history of it, it's very important to note he was the middle of the five in a row wins of The Belmont by trainer Woody Stephens.

Whenever the question comes up, "which sports record will be the toughest to break," I normally note the five consecutive Belmont's won by Woody Stephens.

I also note the number of consecutive MLB no hitters.....two.....held by Johnny Vander Meer.

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by RollerDoc

I am intrigued about horses that won two legs of the triple crown. The most popular is of course those who won the first two but then lost the Belmont like Smarty Jones, Big Brown, etc. etc.

Then there is the non winner of the Kentucky Derby that comes back and wins the Preakness and Belmont like Afleet Alex in 2005.

I am kind of inquisitive about the other combination. Winning the Kentucky Derby and then losing the Preakness but winning the Belmont. This happened to Swale in 1983. Can somebody who followed Swale offer some history on his races that year? What happened in the Preakness to him? It seems odd to me he would get beat so badly in the Preakness yet win the longer track Belmont so easily.

Also Swale died of a heart attack eight days after winning the Belmont. Heard he was a hell of a horse. Glad he won the top 3yr old, even though his season was over after the Belmont.

swale had a really fast workout a few days before the preakness-many think he ran his race that day and had nothing in the tank for the real racing. i think he finished eighth that day.

swale was claibornes first derby winner btw.

[RollerDoc]

Originally Posted by Danzig

swale had a really fast workout a few days before the preakness-many think he ran his race that day and had nothing in the tank for the real racing. i think he finished eighth that day.

swale was claibornes first derby winner btw.

Isn't that a very basic mistake by the trainer to workout like that so close to a big race?

[RolloTomasi]

Riva Ridge won the Derby and Belmont, but bombed in the Preakness. Mainly because he detested an off track, and Pimlico was sloppy that day.

Thunder Gulch is another. He was 3rd in the Preakness to his own stablemate, but basically had no excuses. His Belmont was a pretty weak affair.

Little Current won both the Preakness and the Belmont by 7 lengths each, coming from way out of it. I'm pretty sure he was in the Derby, too, but obviously his late kick wasn't enough.

Hansel also took the last 2 legs (at generous odds each time, despite being Derby favorite). Not sure what happened in the Derby (he was 10th), although his last two preps (the Jim Beam and Lexington) were monstrous efforts, so perhaps he was over-the-top. That doesn't make much sense though when he comes right back 2 weeks later and beats the same horses by 7 lengths.

[zippyneedsawin]

Originally Posted by RolloTomasi

Riva Ridge won the Derby and Belmont, but bombed in the Preakness. Mainly because he detested an off track, and Pimlico was sloppy that day.

Thunder Gulch is another. He was 3rd in the Preakness to his own stablemate, but basically had no excuses. His Belmont was a pretty weak affair.

Little Current won both the Preakness and the Belmont by 7 lengths each, coming from way out of it. I'm pretty sure he was in the Derby, too, but obviously his late kick wasn't enough.

Hansel also took the last 2 legs (at generous odds each time, despite being Derby favorite). Not sure what happened in the Derby (he was 10th), although his last two preps (the Jim Beam and Lexington) were monstrous efforts, so perhaps he was over-the-top. That doesn't make much sense though when he comes right back 2 weeks later and beats the same horses by 7 lengths.

Little Current finished 5th... in a 23 HORSE FIELD!!

http://www.kentuckyderby.com/2005/de...ears/1974.html

[Danzig]

and i was incorrect in memory, swale finished seventh in the preakness. and imo would hold more than a 'slight' edge over big brown.

[RollerDoc]

Originally Posted by zippyneedsawin

Little Current finished 5th... in a 23 HORSE FIELD!!

http://www.kentuckyderby.com/2005/de...ears/1974.html

Wow there was horse in that Derby that finished 17th named Triple Crown. Yikes. I see that was Canonade's Derby. What happened to him the rest of his 3 year old career?

[pgiaco]

Originally Posted by zippyneedsawin

Little Current finished 5th... in a 23 HORSE FIELD!!

http://www.kentuckyderby.com/2005/de...ears/1974.html

That Derby is the reason there is a 20 horse limit now.

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by RollerDoc

Isn't that a very basic mistake by the trainer to workout like that so close to a big race?

when a thousand pound horse takes it into his head to run his ass off in a work, there's not much the rider or trainer can do about it. woody stephens was one of the best trainers ever in this sport, i think he knew a bit about what he was doing.

[King Glorious]

Originally Posted by RollerDoc

Isn't that a very basic mistake by the trainer to workout like that so close to a big race?

Risen Star worked a 33 and change either the Thursday or Friday before the Belmont. People said it was too fast and he'd left his race on the track. He won by 14 in one of the fastest Belmont's ever.