Bernardini

[The Indomitable DrugS]

Bernardini's sire A. P. Indy has long emerged as the best dirt route sire out there. He's by Seattle Slew out of a Secretariat mare - which means two triple crown winners and no Mr. Prospector or Storm Cat.

A. P. Indy




Bernardini's dam Cara Rafaela was an extremely precocious route horse. She was a close 2nd in the BC Juvie fillies and won a strong Grade 1 as a 2yo - and her career quickly went to absolute sh!t. Though she was able to win a division of a 39K restricted stakes at Fairplex as an older horse.

CARA RAF:



Cara Rafaela's half brother was the wickedly fast So. Cal sprinter from the Mid 90's Abaginone.



Even though Bernardini's race record is similar to A. P. Indy's (Bernardini was the better race horse of the two by the way) I have my doubts his offspring tendencies will be similar.. especially with what I've seen from his first crop.

Bernardini's offspring are looking quicker and a lot better suited to sprinting than A. P. Indy's. He's only had one crop race so far - and the best horses have been To Honor and Serve, A. P. Warrior, Stay Thirsty, and Biondetti ... but you'd think he's already proven himself a great stallion.

Hopefully a lot of his good offspring don't develop like his mom did. Interesting to follow - because he could be either the next all-time great stallion - or a just a very good stallion who sires a lot of well bred flash in the pan types that look real promising and fizzle.

[Betsy]

Originally Posted by The Indomitable DrugS

Bernardini's sire A. P. Indy has long emerged as the best dirt route sire out there. He's by Seattle Slew out of a Secretariat mare - which means two triple crown winners and no Mr. Prospector or Storm Cat.

A. P. Indy




Bernardini's dam Cara Rafaela was an extremely precocious route horse. She was a close 2nd in the BC Juvie fillies and won a strong Grade 1 as a 2yo - and her career quickly went to absolute sh!t. Though she was able to win a division of a 39K restricted stakes at Fairplex as an older horse.

CARA RAF:



Cara Rafaela's half brother was the wickedly fast So. Cal sprinter from the Mid 90's Abaginone.



Even though Bernardini's race record is similar to A. P. Indy's (Bernardini was the better race horse of the two by the way) I have my doubts his offspring tendencies will be similar.. especially with what I've seen from his first crop.

Bernardini's offspring are looking quicker and a lot better suited to sprinting than A. P. Indy's. He's only had one crop race so far - and the best horses have been To Honor and Serve, A. P. Warrior, Stay Thirsty, and Biondetti ... but you'd think he's already proven himself a great stallion.

Hopefully a lot of his good offspring don't develop like his mom did. Interesting to follow - because he could be either the next all-time great stallion - or a just a very good stallion who sires a lot of well bred flash in the pan types that look real promising and fizzle.

I'm still annoyed at the Sheikh retiring this horse before he'd had a chance to really prove himself, but yeah - he was a tremendous racehorse (though I still think Pulpit was Indy's most brilliant).

As to your last point, I suppose we can say that about any sire. This topic was brought up on another board, but lots of stallions got off to fine starts only to fizzle. I certainly have the highest hopes for Bernardini, so obviously I hope that he takes after his sire and not his dam. Indy is proving to be a very good sire of sires and even Mineshaft, who got off to a slow start as a sire, is doing well now.

I agree that Bernardini is imparting more speed to his offspring than Indy, but I'm not sure they are more suited to sprinting - it's not like he's imparting crazy speed (though I think Crossbow will end up being a sprinter/miler - he's very fast). It's just that they all seem to have tactical speed, which is certainly an advantage (though Indy hasn't done badly thus far, lol). So far this year, he's had some runners who have not run well, but he's also had some show very good promise (Crossbow, Cassini Flight, Heron Lake and Break up the Game - yes, I know the latter is still a maiden- and another maiden, a Pletcher filly named R Gypsy Gold). I guess we'll find out soon enough if his best offspring have trained on because Stay Thirsty (I know he's not well thought of here) is set to work this weekend (and his first race back will be in the Gotham), AZ Warrior will return in the Las Virgenes most likely and hopefully To Honor and Serve will make the FOY. Unfortunately we'll have to follow Biondetti (who is a particular favorite of mine) from afar. One thing Bernardini has over AP Indy is that his offspring (at least in Europ) have handled turf and synthetics.

[Indian Charlie]

Originally Posted by The Indomitable DrugS

Even though Bernardini's race record is similar to A. P. Indy's (Bernardini was the better race horse of the two by the way) I have my doubts his offspring tendencies will be similar.. especially with what I've seen from his first crop.

You are, as I'm sure you know, wrong about Indy vs Bernardini. Drysdale wasn't even close to getting to the bottom of his horse.

Originally Posted by The Indomitable DrugS

Bernardini's offspring are looking quicker and a lot better suited to sprinting than A. P. Indy's. He's only had one crop race so far - and the best horses have been To Honor and Serve, A. P. Warrior, Stay Thirsty, and Biondetti ... but you'd think he's already proven himself a great stallion.

AP Indy in his first crop had spectacular first time out winner A P Assay, whom I believe broke her maiden going 4.5f in track record time at HP. In his second crop, he had the ultra fast Old Trieste.

You probably would have been saying the same thing about Indy back then as what you are saying now about Bernardini.

By the way, I'm pretty sure AP Warrior was by AP Indy. I'm guessing you meant AZ.

[VOL JACK]

Originally Posted by Betsy

I'm still annoyed at the Sheikh retiring this horse before he'd had a chance to really prove himself, but yeah - he was a tremendous racehorse (though I still think Pulpit was Indy's most brilliant).

As to your last point, I suppose we can say that about any sire. This topic was brought up on another board, but lots of stallions got off to fine starts only to fizzle. I certainly have the highest hopes for Bernardini, so obviously I hope that he takes after his sire and not his dam. Indy is proving to be a very good sire of sires and even Mineshaft, who got off to a slow start as a sire, is doing well now.

I agree that Bernardini is imparting more speed to his offspring than Indy, but I'm not sure they are more suited to sprinting - it's not like he's imparting crazy speed (though I think Crossbow will end up being a sprinter/miler - he's very fast). It's just that they all seem to have tactical speed, which is certainly an advantage (though Indy hasn't done badly thus far, lol). So far this year, he's had some runners who have not run well, but he's also had some show very good promise (Crossbow, Cassini Flight, Heron Lake and Break up the Game - yes, I know the latter is still a maiden- and another maiden, a Pletcher filly named R Gypsy Gold). I guess we'll find out soon enough if his best offspring have trained on because Stay Thirsty (I know he's not well thought of here) is set to work this weekend (and his first race back will be in the Gotham), AZ Warrior will return in the Las Virgenes most likely and hopefully To Honor and Serve will make the FOY. Unfortunately we'll have to follow Biondetti (who is a particular favorite of mine) from afar. One thing Bernardini has over AP Indy is that his offspring (at least in Europ) have handled turf and synthetics.

I agree.
the tail wags the dog with the Sheiks.
They spent hundreds of millions trying to breed a colt like Bernardini.
Then they retired him as soon as possible..

[Betsy]

Originally Posted by Indian Charlie

You are, as I'm sure you know, wrong about Indy vs Bernardini. Drysdale wasn't even close to getting to the bottom of his horse.




AP Indy in his first crop had spectacular first time out winner A P Assay, whom I believe broke her maiden going 4.5f in track record time at HP. In his second crop, he had the ultra fast Old Trieste.

You probably would have been saying the same thing about Indy back then as what you are saying now about Bernardini.

By the way, I'm pretty sure AP Warrior was by AP Indy. I'm guessing you meant AZ.

AP Assay was a very good filly, but unsound if I recall.......and you're right about Old Trieste. What a shame he died early. I see a lot on the boards about Indy siring only plodders ..if so, he's made a hell of a nice career out of it.

Bernardini was supremely talented - and he gets knocked for finishing 2nd as 3 year old to a great older horse. I can't say he was for sure better than Indy, but it's possible....

[Betsy]

Originally Posted by VOL JACK

I agree.
the tail wags the dog with the Sheiks.
They spent hundreds of millions trying to breed a colt like Bernardini.
Then they retired him as soon as possible..

Yep......imagine what he could have done as a 4 year old. I guess he wanted to try and win a Derby with a homegrown stallion ASAP, but I was always ticked off that he kept Discreet Cat in training and retired this boy. To me, it was just a waste.

[freddymo]

Originally Posted by VOL JACK

I agree.
the tail wags the dog with the Sheiks.
They spent hundreds of millions trying to breed a colt like Bernardini.
Then they retired him as soon as possible..

They need the millions in potential stallion fees to help support all their Camel racing exploits silly!

[johnny pinwheel]

i disagree that bernardini was better....the withers, jim dandy and travers were a joke. he won the preakness when the BIG horse broke down. in fact, the travers field was one of the worst ever. he beat blugrass cat and allowance loser dr. pleasure...real tough...then showed his true colors when invasor ate him for lunch the same way ap indy did in his classic...the jockey gold cup is his one legit race and that field was sort of "beat" too...ap indy ran against pleasant tap and strike the gold....i know the numbers probably say different but when your beating up chumps its easy to run faster.

[Indian Charlie]

Originally Posted by Betsy

AP Assay was a very good filly, but unsound if I recall.......and you're right about Old Trieste. What a shame he died early. I see a lot on the boards about Indy siring only plodders ..if so, he's made a hell of a nice career out of it.

Bernardini was supremely talented - and he gets knocked for finishing 2nd as 3 year old to a great older horse. I can't say he was for sure better than Indy, but it's possible....

Invasor was a pretty nice horse, but great? No way.

Bernardini, he was also a really good horse as well, but I just don't get how people went off the deep-end with him.

[Sightseek]

Originally Posted by Indian Charlie

Invasor was a pretty nice horse, but great? No way.

Bernardini, he was also a really good horse as well, but I just don't get how people went off the deep-end with him.

Perhaps they were just relatively speaking to what else was running at the time.

[Indian Charlie]

Originally Posted by Sightseek

Perhaps they were just relatively speaking to what else was running at the time.

Yeah, well, no doubt he was much superior to what was left of the 3yos, but heck, he still lost to Invasor.

Also, people were elevating him to all time great status. Heck, one dork on DT recently even went so far as saying he was a better racehorse than his sire!

Seriously.

[Betsy]

Originally Posted by Indian Charlie

Invasor was a pretty nice horse, but great? No way.

Bernardini, he was also a really good horse as well, but I just don't get how people went off the deep-end with him.

I adored Bernardini and just thought he was a tremendous horse. He didn't get a chance to prove his greatness as a 4 year old, which stinks. Maybe Invasor wasn't "great", but I see people knocking his race to this very good older horse as proof that Bernardini was not very good and that makes no sense. I think it's possible to think a horse is very good and very talented without thinking he's the greatest thing ever. Bernadini did have exceptional talent, but thanks to the Sheikh, we'll never know what he could have done as he improved as an older horse. I also think it's unfair to knock him because Barbaro broke down in the Preakness. Bernardini ran great that day - who's to say he wouldn't have won anyway? That would have been a very nice rivalry - too bad it didn't happen.

No one loves Indy more than I do, but yes - I absolutely think Bernardini could have beaten him.

[Indian Charlie]

At the time of their respective retirements, I think there was still quite a bit more upside to Indy than Bernardini.

The thing with Indy, his Canadian race notwithstanding, he was still improving with every start. I, and many others back then, thought he was going to keep getting better had he raced more.

I can't say the same for Bernardini.

[Betsy]

Originally Posted by Indian Charlie

At the time of their respective retirements, I think there was still quite a bit more upside to Indy than Bernardini.

The thing with Indy, his Canadian race notwithstanding, he was still improving with every start. I, and many others back then, thought he was going to keep getting better had he raced more.

I can't say the same for Bernardini.

You didn't think Bernardini was capable of improving even off his excellent 3 year old form? I guess we'll never know, but I thought he had a lot more that we never got to see. All I do know is that I have never been as crushed as I was when Indy was scratched on Derby eve........what a punch in the gut that was. It was sweet vindication when he won the BC. He won that race so easily.I hoped he'd run as a 4 year old, but I didn't think that was ever a real possibility. I was just glad that his owner was not into breeding because if he was, Indy would be in Japan now. It's been a long time - maybe I'm underrating how good he was as a racehorse because he's been so good as a sire. It's a shame that he probably won't ever sire a KY Derby winner, but maybe one of his sons will.

[The Indomitable DrugS]

Originally Posted by Indian Charlie

In his second crop, he had the ultra fast Old Trieste.

Old Trieste performed poorly sprinting.

[The Indomitable DrugS]

Originally Posted by Indian Charlie

Heck, one dork on DT recently even went so far as saying he was a better racehorse than his sire!

Yes - A. P. Indy was "a better race horse" because Drysdale "never got to the bottom of him"

Perhaps A. P. Indy was improving and would have been a better older horse - but anyone who rates him better than Bernardini as a racehorse - based on the record - is clueless.

[Indian Charlie]

Originally Posted by The Indomitable DrugS

Yes - A. P. Indy was "a better race horse" because Drysdale "never got to the bottom of him"

Perhaps A. P. Indy was improving and would have been a better older horse - but anyone who rates him better than Bernardini as a racehorse - based on the record - is clueless.

Likewise, anyone who relies solely on numbers is as well.

As you know already, there is more to my belief Indy was a better runner than Bernardini than just that one little quip I mentioned.

Based on the record? Indy was a grade 1 winner at 2, despite being far from having reached his full potential. He beat a very good horse in the SA Derby (Bertrando) that was probably much better than anything Bernardini beat.

He won the Belmont. His loss in his final start before the BCC (I believe it was the JCGC) was light years better than anything Bernardini ever showed, and oh yeah, he won the BCC over a much better field than what Bernardini faced.

Granted, one loss does not define a career or a horse, but Bernardini did fire and had no excuses when he lost to what was basically a deluxe version of Musket Man.

[Indian Charlie]

Originally Posted by The Indomitable DrugS

Old Trieste performed poorly sprinting.

I'm going to go out on a limb and say that was probably more due to him improving with racing than him not being able to sprint.

You'd have to be completely out of your mind to think he wouldn't have been an upper echelon sprinter later in his career.

[The Indomitable DrugS]

Originally Posted by johnny pinwheel

ap indy ran against pleasant tap and strike the gold....i know the numbers probably say different but when your beating up chumps its easy to run faster.

I don't know what is funnier - that anyone would think "Invasor ate Bernardini for lunch in the BC Classic" or Pleasant Tap and Strike The Gold being held as great competition.

Strike The Gold - while a favorite horse of mine (and least favorite of my grandfather) - was a losing machine and became something of a laughing stock.



Pleasant Tap was a very solid horse .. but nothing that special.




I love how Bernardini's blowout wins in major 3yo races get picked apart - but A. P. Indy's 3yo races just get ignored. The hapless Benburb had his way with A. P. Indy in Canada off of the layoff in the Molson Million.

A. P. Indy's second best career win besides the BC Classic came in the Belmont Stakes in workmanlike fashion over the immortal My Memoirs



The year A. P. Indy won the BC Classic - Jolypha ..the 3yo filly from Europe was 3rd in the race.

[The Indomitable DrugS]

Originally Posted by Indian Charlie

Granted, one loss does not define a career or a horse, but Bernardini did fire and had no excuses when he lost to what was basically a deluxe version of Musket Man.

Invasor is a deluxe version of Musket Man?

Dude, stop trying to think for yourself ... it's not working. Adopt the belief that if I say it - I must be right.