Belmont Fractions

[SniperSB23]

Anyone else questioning the fractions for the Belmont? Based on the times listed in the chart Mine that Bird went from the mile to the mile and a quarter point in about 22.92. I find that hard to believe and if it is the case it was one of the all time butcher riding jobs by Borel.

[3kings]

Originally Posted by SniperSB23

Anyone else questioning the fractions for the Belmont? Based on the times listed in the chart Mine that Bird went from the mile to the mile and a quarter point in about 22.92. I find that hard to believe and if it is the case it was one of the all time butcher riding jobs by Borel.

Even if the times are wrong it was still a butcher job by Borel.

[SniperSB23]

Originally Posted by 3kings

Even if the times are wrong it was still a butcher job by Borel.

No doubt, I'm just trying to establish if it was in all time worst ride category. If those fractions are true then Mine the Bird is one hell of a horse.

[3kings]

Originally Posted by SniperSB23

No doubt, I'm just trying to establish if it was in all time worst ride category. If those fractions are true then Mine the Bird is one hell of a horse.

What is amazing to me is that all anyone talked about was how closers can't make a premature move, yet the jockies on the favorite repeat the mistake every year.

[Bobby Fischer]

It was obviously premature.

I don't think quite as bad as what we the viewer will see first watching...
Borel thought he had more horse and was overconfident, and he also had to consider not only riding to measure Dunkirk, but any other rivals.

I think he should have been a clear 2nd here. There was no reason to let Dunkirk beat him. I don't think he would have beaten Summer Bird.

[Riot]

Borel said the horse was overeager, and he had to make the choice to throttle him back and fight him or let him cruise a little up the backstretch, he chose cruise.

The trainer said, "Yup, that's what the horse has done in the past unsuccessfully" and "that's racing, Calvin did a great job".

[The Indomitable DrugS]

The horse was rank and the track was lightning fast.

I know how the ride looked, and naked it looked like a poor ride, but I didn't have a big problem with it at all knowing the horse.

It's not like he could have strangulated the horse down for 11 furlongs and let him go and got this big burst. The grinders in the race were Summer Bird and Chocolate Candy.

Mine That Bird was up close to a wicked fast pace at Sunland and loafed home. He's no grinder. He's a horse who has a ton of early speed - but won't finish when you use it - or has no early speed at all for a half mile and will take off.

In his two good races .. both at shorter distances ... he got a ton of pace to work with and had horses stopping in front of him.

[SniperSB23]

Originally Posted by Riot

Borel said the horse was overeager, and he had to make the choice to throttle him back and fight him or let him cruise a little up the backstretch, he chose cruise.

The trainer said, "Yup, that's what the horse has done in the past unsuccessfully" and "that's racing, Calvin did a great job".

Do you believe everything anyone says?

[Bobby Fischer]

Originally Posted by Riot

Borel said the horse was overeager, and he had to make the choice to throttle him back and fight him or let him cruise a little up the backstretch, he chose cruise.

The trainer said, "Yup, that's what the horse has done in the past unsuccessfully" and "that's racing, Calvin did a great job".

right it was a question of finesse. Borel wasn't going wild asking for run, he just let way too much horse out. He made a comment that they were going too slow up front approaching the stretch so he had to let 'em go

[Riot]

Originally Posted by SniperSB23

Do you believe everything anyone says?

No, but I was watching the race, and saw it happening (Durkin didn't). Go watch the replay.

[SniperSB23]

Originally Posted by Bobby Fischer

right it was a question of finesse. Borel wasn't going wild asking for run, he just let way too much horse out. He made a comment that they were going too slow up front approaching the stretch so he had to let 'em go

The thing was they weren't going too slow. Borel completely misjudged the pace and made one of the worst premature moves of all time. If he waits he blows away Summer Bird.

[the_fat_man]

Originally Posted by The Indomitable DrugS

I know how the ride looked, and naked it looked like a poor ride, but I didn't have a big problem with it at all knowing the horse.

I have a problem with it. I don't care what the situation is. In almost all cases a move like this just doesn't work. There's always at least one horse that catches a break and gets a breather, not running when the others are, and is able to come on and last move those that ran before it. Happens daily in races all over the country, on all the different surfaces. You run too soon, you run out of gas sooner. Try this sometime. Get out there on a bike or in running shoes. Once you experience it first hand, you'll finally understand. Jocks keep doing this **** because it doesn't cost them anything.

[The Indomitable DrugS]

Originally Posted by the_fat_man

I have a problem with it. I don't care what the situation is. In almost all cases a move like this just doesn't work. There's always at least one horse that catches a break and gets a breather, not running when the others are, and is able to come on and last move those than ran before it. Happens daily in races all over the country, on all the different surfaces. You run too soon, you run out of gas sooner. Try this sometime. Get out there on a bike or in running shoes. One you experience it first hand, you'll finally understand.

I hear ya.

Good luck finding a jockey who would have been able to ride him that way.

They'd have looked like Jose Santos when he would occasionally rate turf horses into submission with his head bobbing and the horse visually looking like he's being steadied and strangled into submission.

[SniperSB23]

Originally Posted by Riot

No, but I was watching the race, and saw it happening (Durkin didn't). Go watch the replay.

Don't worry, I've watched it. I also saw the trainer make his comments and despite how you are portraying them he was not happy with the ride at all. What I saw was Luv Gov drop back into Mine that Bird's face and Calvin decided to pass him and then for some bizarre reason decided to try and pass the rest of the field like he was on Secretariat.

[Riot]

Originally Posted by the_fat_man

I have a problem with it. I don't care what the situation is. In almost all cases a move like this just doesn't work. There's always at least one horse that catches a break and gets a breather, not running when the others are, and is able to come on and last move those than ran before it. Happens daily in races all over the country, on all the different surfaces. You run too soon, you run out of gas sooner. Try this sometime. Get out there on a bike or in running shoes. One you experience it first hand, you'll finally understand.

It's not a failure to understand anything. It's an instantaneous choice the jock has to make, strangle or fight the horse to restrain him (and use up energy) or try and finesse the eagerness a bit and let the horse roll on. I don't see Borel asking the horse, I see him sitting quiet as a mouse. I don't see where the horse could have been helped by cover, either. The problem started when the horse came out of the first turn.

[the_fat_man]

Originally Posted by The Indomitable DrugS

I hear ya.

Good luck finding a jockey who would have been able to ride him that way.

They'd have looked like Jose Santos when he would occasionally rate turf horses into submission with his head bobbing and the horse visually looking like he's being steadied and strangled into submission.

The wrestling matches between jocks and horses that go on in turf races and what MTB was doing today going into the turf are about as distinct as a fat man and a skinny one.

[Riot]

Originally Posted by SniperSB23

Don't worry, I've watched it. I also saw the trainer make his comments and despite how you are portraying them he was not happy with the ride at all. What I saw was Luv Gov drop back into Mine that Bird's face and Calvin decided to pass him and then for some bizarre reason decided to try and pass the rest of the field like he was on Secretariat.

And that (differences in interpreting previous race replays) is what makes pari-mutual gambling rewarding.

[letswastemoney]

The trainer mentioned he wished Borel had kept MTB covered up on the rail. If Borel had done that, maybe he would have relaxed better.

[Bobby Fischer]

Originally Posted by SniperSB23

The thing was they weren't going too slow. Borel completely misjudged the pace and made one of the worst premature moves of all time. If he waits he blows away Summer Bird.

Right, Borel either didn't see the race accurately, or was making excuses in the interview.
A "perfect" ride definitely beats Dunkirk, but I don't think it beats Summer Bird.

[the_fat_man]

Originally Posted by Riot

It's not a failure to understand anything. It's an instantaneous choice the jock has to make, strangle or fight the horse to restrain him (and use up energy) or try and finesse the eagerness a bit and let the horse roll on. I don't see Borel asking the horse, I see him sitting quiet as a mouse. I don't see where the horse could have been helped by cover, either. The problem started when the horse came out of the first turn.

I don't see this. I don't have the headon but from the pan shot, I don't see the horse fighting Borel. I don't see a problem in the 1st turn. In fact, as they start to run into the 2nd turn, you see Borel let go of the reign with his left hand to change his goggles. There's no wrestling match. And, I see him urging the horse on the turn, and whipping before he enters.