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#1
09-25-2008, 07:49 AM
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Breeders' Cup Fan Fantasy: The Sprint
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Ticket Seller: All kind of balls... Bodyguard: One of his is crystal. 
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#2
09-25-2008, 08:07 AM
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Oy vay..
Once you vote you get to see the current (laughable) results... Has Kona Gold, (who took 4 tries to get it right and by a nostril at that), and paved Gulfstream highway Sprint winner Artax leading Precisionist... the hands down, obvious top choice...
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All ambitions are lawful except those which climb upward on the miseries or credulities of mankind. ~ Joseph Conrad A long habit of not thinking a thing wrong, gives it a superficial appearance of being right. ~ Thomas Paine Don't let anyone tell you that your dreams can't come true. They are only afraid that theirs won't and yours will. ~ Robert Evans The Party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command. ~ George Orwell, 1984.
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#3
09-25-2008, 08:26 AM
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Obviously I agree that Precisionist was probably the best overall winner of the Sprint in history but I think you need to peruse Artax's pps from that year. He was a completely deserving winner of the Sprint and had a fabulous year to back it up.
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Just more nebulous nonsense from BBB
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#4
09-25-2008, 08:46 AM
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Precisionist would clearly be the best overall horse of the 8 - however - I'd have a big problem voting for him in something like this.
He won the Breeders Cup Sprint in '85 - his prior sprint race was a 6th place finish - albeit beaten just 3.25 lengths in the Potrero Grande. Just four weeks after his BC Sprint win - he was 4th in a Grade 3 Stake going 6 furlongs at 2/5 odds. He was off the board in 6 of his 10 lifetime stake sprint races. If you are talking best individual performance ever in a Breeders Cup Sprint win - I think it's pretty clear that Artax would be the winner. If you are talking best overall Breeders Cup Sprint resume - Kona Gold is the right horse. He ran in the glory years of the race - when the sprint division was just loaded. I haven't paid much attention to these things - so I'm not sure if they're looking for the best overall horse, or best winning performance in the race, or best overall collection of races in the history of the race. You have a different cut and dry winner in all three I think.
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#5
09-25-2008, 08:50 AM
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Ticket Seller: All kind of balls... Bodyguard: One of his is crystal.
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#6
09-25-2008, 09:03 AM
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Plus, once he came east in '99, I remember him being unable to beat a bunch of good sprinters all year.. Intidab in the A Phenomenon I think. Several including Affirmed Success in the Forego.. I think Kelly Kip beat him at Belmont in the spring (or maybe AQU in April? etc.. (I suppose he wins the Maryland BC Sprint H. on Preakness Day if not for the nutbar that took the swing at him..  )
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All ambitions are lawful except those which climb upward on the miseries or credulities of mankind. ~ Joseph Conrad A long habit of not thinking a thing wrong, gives it a superficial appearance of being right. ~ Thomas Paine Don't let anyone tell you that your dreams can't come true. They are only afraid that theirs won't and yours will. ~ Robert Evans The Party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command. ~ George Orwell, 1984.
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#7
09-25-2008, 09:09 AM
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Artax lost 6 in a row that year - but his figures were outstanding even in a few of those defeats - and very high in his victorys. I believe his half length win the in the Sprint over KG got a 123 Beyer.
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#8
09-25-2008, 09:10 AM
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By the way, he DESTROYED the fields in the Vosburgh and Forest Hills at Belmont prepping for the BC...
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#9
09-25-2008, 09:13 AM
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#10
09-25-2008, 09:29 AM
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Artax is a difficult one for me to judge. When he was on his game, he was incredible. Even when he lost some of the races he lost, he ran very well. But the thing that always will bother me about him is that even in that championship year, he lost more than he won. When I think of champions and dominating performers, it's hard for me to go with a horse that loses more than he wins. His Sprint may have been the single best of all of the sprints though but I don't think it's a clear best. I thought Cherokee Run's race was huge in beating a returning champ in Cardmania and a super filly in Soviet Problem. And what about Very Subtle completely dominating the race as a 3yo filly? I think I'd go with Cherokee Run's as the best win, Precisionist as the best horse to win the race and Artax as the best sprinter when he ran his best race. One that I thought was underrated and didn't get selected was Reraise. I never have thought he got the credit he's deserved.
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The real horses of the year (1986-2020) Manila, Java Gold, Alysheba, Sunday Silence, Go for Wand, In Excess, Paseana, Kotashaan, Holy Bull, Cigar, Alphabet Soup, Formal Gold, Skip Away, Artax, Tiznow, Point Given, Azeri, Candy Ride, Smarty Jones, Ghostzapper, Invasor, Curlin, Zenyatta, Zenyatta, Goldikova, Havre de Grace, Wise Dan, Wise Dan, California Chrome, American Pharoah, Arrogate, Gun Runner, Accelerate, Maximum Security, Gamine
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#11
09-25-2008, 09:43 AM
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There is simply no way Cherokee Run's win was as good as Artax's either. I believe CR got something like a 110 Beyer - compared to the 123 for Artax. Artax broke Mr. Prospector's long standing track record and defeated two of the best sprinters of the 90's in Kona Gold and Big Jag. Soviet Problem was a super No Cal filly and was beaten only a head - and Cardmania was a 22/1 shot 3rd place finisher - who hadn't won a race in ten months prior to that BC Sprint - and was defeated in each of his 7 starts following that race before retiring.
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#12
09-25-2008, 10:02 AM
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Gulch beat a really good field in 89 including Precisionist, Afleet, Very Subtle, Olympic Prospect, Ruhlman and Mining. Call me crazy but i would take him any day of the week over Kona Gold. For him not be in the top 8 is stupid.
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#13
09-25-2008, 10:12 AM
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#14
09-25-2008, 10:15 AM
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#16
09-25-2008, 10:30 AM
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As for the win - It was in the mud - the time was moderate with a 49 2/5 final half - and Gulch had been defeated in each of his last five. Kona Gold simply has to rate as a better sprinter. Gulch was 18 out of it in the Derby and 16 out of it in the Belmont. I think he, Dancing Spree, and Precisionist were all horses who would have been much more likely to start in a BC Dirt Mile than a BC Sprint if such a race was around in their day.
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#17
09-25-2008, 10:37 AM
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Gulch was a tremendous horse.
However, if Afleet had just a bad jockey, like say Barrington Harvey, instead of the guy who rode him, he would have won that BC Sprint and the Met Mile earlier in the year.
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Just more nebulous nonsense from BBB
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#18
09-25-2008, 10:40 AM
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Smile has a win and a 2nd to Precisionist in his two attempts in the race - but otherwise was not a dominant sprinter. The year Precisionist won and he was 2nd - he was off the board at 1/2 in the Vosburgh two weeks later. Precisionist was off the board at 2/5 four weeks later out West. Both horses finished behind Pancho Villa (2nd in the Vosburgh and won the National Sprint Champ at HP) From looking at past performances, speed figures, and watching videos of races - I would have to say the two best sprinters of the 1980's were Phone Trick and Groovy. PT never ran in the BC - and Groovy was beaten twice in the BC Sprint as an odds on favorite.
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#19
09-25-2008, 10:45 AM
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Maybe because I was biased towards Soviet Problem, I am giving Cherokee Run more credit than he deserves. However, when analyzing a single performance, I don't think what they had done in their previous few races has much meaning. Cherokee Run may have lost 6 of his last 7 going in and Gulch may have lost his last five going in and been well back in the Derby but that doesn't have anything to do with how he ran in the BC. And I think that in order to be completely fair about Gulch, you have to mention that in those last five loses were races in the Whitney (second to Personal Ensign), Iselin (third to Alysheba and Bet Twice), and Californian (second to Cutlass Reality). When he was sprinting, he was pretty damn good all year long, winning the Met Mile, Carter (1:20 2/5) and Portrero Grande (1:15) along with seconds in the Tom Fool and Vosburgh.
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The real horses of the year (1986-2020) Manila, Java Gold, Alysheba, Sunday Silence, Go for Wand, In Excess, Paseana, Kotashaan, Holy Bull, Cigar, Alphabet Soup, Formal Gold, Skip Away, Artax, Tiznow, Point Given, Azeri, Candy Ride, Smarty Jones, Ghostzapper, Invasor, Curlin, Zenyatta, Zenyatta, Goldikova, Havre de Grace, Wise Dan, Wise Dan, California Chrome, American Pharoah, Arrogate, Gun Runner, Accelerate, Maximum Security, Gamine
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#20
09-25-2008, 10:49 AM
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You guys went off on Honour And Glory yesterday. Visually, Lit De Justice ran like a monster at Woodbine.
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