scratch rules in kentucky

[deltagulf]

story on draw and scratch rules here. for bigger fields in kentucky.




http://news.bloodhorse.com//viewstory.asp?id=39423

[ALostTexan]

There needs to be something done about the BS scratches that go on every day. "We didn't like the post position" is an excuse that really, really pisses me off, and I am glad that something is being done about it, since it is way too easy to claim a medical reason for a scratch and then run them back two days later.

Now, if they can only do something to change the way that trainers can scratch without reason until the field is down to 8. Sorry if you don't like the competition that you are facing, but if you enter a horse into a race, you should race them.

Just a small step to help the bettors, which is at least something...

[10 pnt move up]

I wish NYRA had this rule, why are trainers constantly allowed to multi enter and scratch to the better spot within a day or so?

[ALostTexan]

100% agree on NYRA, total BS that this can happen...

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by ALostTexan

There needs to be something done about the BS scratches that go on every day. "We didn't like the post position" is an excuse that really, really pisses me off, and I am glad that something is being done about it, since it is way too easy to claim a medical reason for a scratch and then run them back two days later.

Now, if they can only do something to change the way that trainers can scratch without reason until the field is down to 8. Sorry if you don't like the competition that you are facing, but if you enter a horse into a race, you should race them.

Just a small step to help the bettors, which is at least something...

Would you rather the horse just go out for a spin because he wasn't allowed to scratch?

Mandatory scratch lists are stupid and they dont work. NYRA a few years back went to a 2 week vets list for scratches and it was quickly scrapped because it make things worse, not better. The new KY rule is just a waste of everybodys time. 3 extra days is not going to be a factor in anyones decision to scratch. Truth is that most of the time when you scratch there is not a similar race written back for a few weeks anyway so it really does not matter. And a lot of the time when you see a horse scratched and entered back in a few days at the same track it was by request of the racing secretary. And I'm not even going to go into having a state vet decide if your horse should or should not be scratched.

[Cannon Shell]

As for the claiming rule. they could have eliminated the open claiming rule and forced out of state owners to run a horse at the meet in order to claim. That would greatly reduce the number of outside horses being claimed at a short meet like Keeneland where it is tougher to get in a race in order to get eligible to claim. What they have done is fail to recoginze the uniqueness of KY's racing setup and serve to hamper the efforts of midwestern horsemen who race on the FairGrounds/Churchill/Keeneland/Arlington curcuit. You would have assumed that Churchill would have seen that doing this will hurt the racing at Arlington and Fair Grounds as horses claimed at Churchill in the spring meet and fall meet will be out of action at their other tracks for a month. This will especially hurt Fair Grounds during December when many owners look to claim at Churchill to run down there for the winter. Many of those owners will either look elsewhere to claim which hurts the bottom line of the state which cant collect the 6% on claims since they will be down dramatically. And it hurts the smaller claiming owner who loses a lot of flexability with a claimed horse. Forcing a guy to run a horse claimed at Churchill at Ellis or Turfway especially a non KY bred is wrong minded.

[deltagulf]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

As for the claiming rule. they could have eliminated the open claiming rule and forced out of state owners to run a horse at the meet in order to claim. That would greatly reduce the number of outside horses being claimed at a short meet like Keeneland where it is tougher to get in a race in order to get eligible to claim. What they have done is fail to recoginze the uniqueness of KY's racing setup and serve to hamper the efforts of midwestern horsemen who race on the FairGrounds/Churchill/Keeneland/Arlington curcuit. You would have assumed that Churchill would have seen that doing this will hurt the racing at Arlington and Fair Grounds as horses claimed at Churchill in the spring meet and fall meet will be out of action at their other tracks for a month. This will especially hurt Fair Grounds during December when many owners look to claim at Churchill to run down there for the winter. Many of those owners will either look elsewhere to claim which hurts the bottom line of the state which cant collect the 6% on claims since they will be down dramatically. And it hurts the smaller claiming owner who loses a lot of flexability with a claimed horse. Forcing a guy to run a horse claimed at Churchill at Ellis or Turfway especially a non KY bred is wrong minded.

so what they are trying to do is not the answer for bigger fields?

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by deltagulf

so what they are trying to do is not the answer for bigger fields?

Keenland and Arlington dont seem to have any problems with field size? The issue is a complex one that has many facets. Tracks cry about field size but they continue to have 11 race cards. They continue to not work with other tracks in their region to try to keep from having similar races written on the same days. They try to intimidate horsemen into running. They pass rules that will probably decrease field size.

[citycat]

Where they are missing the boat is when you have an owner who is not even licensed in the state they are running gets a local trainer to claim the horse then ship it out to them later. The local trainer usually gets some kind of cut on the deal. I would like to see this practice stopped. If you want to claim a horse have the guts and brains to get licensed in the state and have the claim dropped in your name.

[citycat]

As far as the proposed new scratch rule I do not think it will solve the problem. I am not sure what the answer is to it either. Locally the vast majority of trainers scratch only when the horse has a problem. We all know who the problem guy is here (Moquett). He is constantly entering two horses in the same race (probably to get the race to go) then scratches one out after it goes. His other little trick is that he enters the same horse at two tracks like CD and Mountaineer. After the fields are set he assess his horses chances and then scratches out of the tougher field. True he is playing within the rules but it just leaves a bad taste in my mouth.

Like I said I dont have the answer but what this guy does rubs most of the other trainers the wrong way. Maybe they should look at the vets who are giving the scratches? Are they actually going over and seeing the horse or are they just blindly writing up vet scratches?

[jpops757]

Im just a fan . Not an owner or trainer. The problem with all the if,ands or buts, is you get the attorneys and some type of govt agency involved and we know this isnt good. I think Chuck offered a simple solution . Cut back on the number of races,increase the purses,develope some sort of curcits to eliminate regoinal compition and utilize regional coperation.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by jpops757

Im just a fan . Not an owner or trainer. The problem with all the if,ands or buts, is you get the attorneys and some type of govt agency involved and we know this isnt good. I think Chuck offered a simple solution . Cut back on the number of races,increase the purses,develope some sort of curcits to eliminate regoinal compition and utilize regional coperation.

Another idea with regard to the claiming rules is to tie the number a claims an owner can make to the number of starts they have. At the short meets it will be hard for a guy to make too many starts and the number of claims will be limited. So if you start a horse you can claim a horse. After you make 2 starts you can claim 2 horses. And so on. Because there are so many short meets it will limit the number of people that will be eligible to claim more than one horse.

[ELA]

Many of these rules that are put into effect are often done under the guise of not wanting to lose horses from the population, maintaining or improving field size, etc. -- however, while it appears like a good idea in theory, I have found that most of the time it doesn't work. There are always other ancillary effects and ramifications in other areas.

Where and when I can race has a direct impact on how I place my horse. If you want to reduce the # of horses claimed at a short meet like Keeneland -- change your eligibility to claim! Don't handcuff an owner on the back end. Maryland recently underwent similar rules proposals/changes. Personally, I would like to know what % of horses claimed race back elsewhere. Of course the #'s are going to be skewed at the end of a meet.

These types of rules hurt the smaller owner -- the backbone of this business. Most owners are not a Sanan, Ramsey, etc. Tell a small owner he has to pay $85 a day, plus vet, blacksmith, shipping, etc. -- but can't race-back in a competitive spot for X days. More importantly, locking an owner up and making them stay in a state, at another meet, etc. is absolute nonsense. This will not help field size.

Stupid question -- aside from state madates or something of the like, if you want to improve field size, why not cut back in the # of races carded daily?

Eric

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by ELA

Stupid question -- aside from state madates or something of the like, if you want to improve field size, why not cut back in the # of races carded daily?

Eric

The fact that tracks focus strictly on field size without regard to the quality of the racing at their meet tells you all you need to know about racetrack management. Sure field size is an important facet in the big picture but it is not nearly as important as they are stressing it to be. Because if you have a 12 horse field with 5 no hope 40-1 shots, how is that better than an 8 horse race where they all have a shot? It is like after 100 years they have discovered this magic formula. I suppose it is an easy way for track management to deflect blame when the handle is off.

[ELA]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

The fact that tracks focus strictly on field size without regard to the quality of the racing at their meet tells you all you need to know about racetrack management. Sure field size is an important facet in the big picture but it is not nearly as important as they are stressing it to be. Because if you have a 12 horse field with 5 no hope 40-1 shots, how is that better than an 8 horse race where they all have a shot? It is like after 100 years they have discovered this magic formula. I suppose it is an easy way for track management to deflect blame when the handle is off.

Chuck, I agree with you completely. My question, while somewhat rhetorical in nature, should should shed light on the fact that -- as you said -- field size is not the end all, cure all; and it can't be looked at myopically. Thus, this entire solution is alleged at best, and might be an alleged solution to a problem that really doesn't exist, isn't important, etc.

I think field size can be addressed in a variety of other ways (also as you said). I read condition books constantly. I read some, and then see races that don't go, and I am shocked that race offices don't see the writing on the walls. Put 14 or 15 races in the book every single day. Have multiple duplicates two out of three or four days, with similars as well. No wonder why races don't go. And race offices are hustling to get 6, or maybe 7 with a scratch.

Personally, I think PJ Campo has done a great job with the cards he's been dealt. However, I don't understand why a losing proposition won't allow someone to say "Hey, maybe we should be looking at 10 races a day instead of 11" (or 9 instead of 10 for that matter).

What monster are you feeding here.

Eric

[The Indomitable DrugS]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

Sure field size is an important facet in the big picture but it is not nearly as important as they are stressing it to be. Because if you have a 12 horse field with 5 no hope 40-1 shots, how is that better than an 8 horse race where they all have a shot?

It's mildly better because, assuming those longshots are all infact hopeless, whatever little bit of money those hopeless horses attract...it lowers the vig in a way. A fairly surprising number of people wheel horses with the all button.

I see your point though.

There's nothing a horse player should like more than a competitively bet field with a large field size.