How bad was Broker's Tip?

[The Indomitable DrugS]

He won the Kentucky Derby as a maiden in 1933 - and never hit the board again.





Broker's Tip won the KY Derby in 2:06.80 - the only other route race that day was a $1,000 claiming race with a $600 purse - the winner was a 4-year-old filly who ran 9fs in 1:53.80

That means the Kentucky Derby went just 8 Beyer points faster than a 1k claiming race won by a filly in workmanlike fashion.

You're dealing with a very similar time period when comparing 1933's form and charts with 1941's form and charts - and I think it's pretty safe to say Whirlaway would have won the '33 Derby by 25-to-30 lengths and do it under restraint.

The nicest thing you can say about the '33 Derby was that the pace was strong. 1:12 4/5 for 6fs - became 2:06 4/5 - meaning the final half mile was run in a trotter like 54 flat.

[Merlinsky]

Not that it makes Brokers Tip better, but wouldn't the time be a little faster if the jockeys weren't having a tussle down the stretch?

[The Indomitable DrugS]

It probably didn't help matters any time-wise.



Without seeing the race - and just looking at the chart - it was obvious that the 2nd place finisher Head Play was tons better than the winner.

Head Play was the leader after 6fs - the horses racing 2nd-3rd-4th after six furlongs finished 'Pulled Up'-12th by about 30 lengths- and 11th by about 18 lengths in a field of 13. Brokers Tip closed from 11th.

[Indian Charlie]

He's likely the only Ky Derby winner to stand stud in Ventura, California as well.

Though there was a HOY sired by MOW that stood there too!

He did sire a horse with a lifetime record of 53-19-7-10 for 222k as well!

The name of this horse was Market Wise, who was a champion, and beat Whirlaway.

From PQ

At 3: WON Wood Memorial S., Gallant Fox H., Jockey Club Gold Cup, Edgemere H., Governor Bowie H., Pimlico Special, Rockingham Park H.; 2ND New York H., Yankee H., Potomac H., Dwyer S.; 3RD Kentucky Derby, Aqueduct H., Hialeah S., Granite State H.
At 4: WON Suburban H., Mclennan H.; 2ND Grey Lag H.; 3RD Metropolitan H.
At 5: WON Massachusetts H., Narragansett Special; 2ND Brooklyn H.; 3RD Butler H., Edgemere H.

Co-champion handicap horse, 1943.
Set an American record in winning the 1941 Jockey Club Gold Cup, defeating Whirlaway.

[The Indomitable DrugS]

How did Olamay do as a broodmare? That was the 4-year-old filly who won the 1k claiming race going just 8 points slower.

[Indian Charlie]

The pedigree database software goes back to only about 1950.

[Merlinsky]

I had assumed from the name that he was a son of Fair Play, but I just saw that Head Play was by My Play, a full brother to Man O' War. He looks like the only winner of a 1933 TC race that accomplished anything worthwhile after. Did he take 1934 off for injury?

Looks like neither Head Play and Brokers Tip entered the Belmont that year, the win going to Hurryoff who just came out of a $4000 claimer and never raced again per the ever informative Google search engine.

[Cannon Shell]

Brokers Tip=the Da' Tara of the 30's

[The Indomitable DrugS]

Here's an old story about one of the best older horses of the 1890's - in his prime - he set a world record for the American Classic distance of 1 1/4 miles - and he ended his days as a taxi cab.

[golfer]

Was $1000 the bottom level for claimers in 1933? That seems like a lot of money back then.

[Linny]

The Dwyers were hard bettors and their horses worked for a living. Today they would be call "butchers" by the internet throngs and in fact they would be right. The Dwyers started out as butchers and were infamous for selling rancid meat to the Union Army in the Civil War.

[Indian Charlie]

He was doomed the moment he was born. Anything from there is going to wind up in a bad way.

[AeWingnut]

How many lengths would Wheelaway have not won by?

[richard burch]

well if brokers tip can win the derby,


why not tobys corner?

i'm not seeing much love for him.

[The Indomitable DrugS]

Originally Posted by golfer

Was $1000 the bottom level for claimers in 1933? That seems like a lot of money back then.

At Churchill Downs during that meet - yes.

Here's a better idea of how slow that Derby was ... in all 3 cases .. only two routes were run on each card...

1914 winner Old Rosebud +41 over 8.5 furlong 1.5K claiming race

'33 winner Broker's Tip +8 points over nine furlong 1k-to-1.25K claiming race.

'41 winner Whirlaway +50 points over nine furlong 1k-to-1.25k claiming race.

In 1933 - the 1K-to-1.25K claimer went 1:53.80 - in 1941 it went 1:53.60 ... the '33 Derby went 2:06.80 and Whirlaway went 2:01.40 in his 8 length win over a very strong and deep Derby field.

Old Rosebud also won by 8 lengths over a strong field. It's hard to say if his race was better than Whirlaway's ... because of inflation - one would think $1,500 claimers in 1914 might be 9 points or more better than 1K-to-1.25K some 27 years later.

[The Indomitable DrugS]

Originally Posted by Linny

The Dwyers were hard bettors and their horses worked for a living. Today they would be call "butchers" by the internet throngs and in fact they would be right. The Dwyers started out as butchers and were infamous for selling rancid meat to the Union Army in the Civil War.

Mike Dwyer - according to this column - had nothing left at the end...









From what I've read on how the bookmaking game went - obviously a much, much easier game to beat 100 years ago. Plunger Walton cleared $350,000 betting in just 2 years during the late 1800's.

[OTM Al]

Originally Posted by The Indomitable DrugS

How did Olamay do as a broodmare? That was the 4-year-old filly who won the 1k claiming race going just 8 points slower.

Can't find a record of her on the pedigree online db, so that would mean that she likely had no offspring of any note. She looks to have been a tough old girl though as Equineline indicates that she raced 114 times. 1933 would have been her 4yo year.

[robfla]

Originally Posted by The Indomitable DrugS

It probably didn't help matters any time-wise.


Without seeing the race - and just looking at the chart - it was obvious that the 2nd place finisher Head Play was tons better than the winner.

Head Play was the leader after 6fs - the horses racing 2nd-3rd-4th after six furlongs finished 'Pulled Up'-12th by about 30 lengths- and 11th by about 18 lengths in a field of 13. Brokers Tip closed from 11th.

I remember reading an article where at the time, there was no photo finish camera, or any other such technology, and that there were 4 stewards in the grandstand with binoculars making the decision on the finish. The owner of Broker's Tip was very charitable to Kentucky, so they favored Broker's Tip in the decision. So, in reality, Broker's Tip could have easily retired a maiden.

To his dying day in 1983, Herb Fisher maintained that he had been cheated out of a victory in the 1933 Kentucky Derby. That was the notorious Fighting Finish Derby, the one in which Fisher, aboard Head Play, battled with Don Meade, riding Brokers Tip, down the stretch at Churchill Downs. It was old-fashioned roughhouse race-riding at its best—or worst. When the horses crossed the line, the finish was too close to call. Since there was no film patrol or photo-finish camera in those days, the decision rested with four stewards who watched the race through binoculars from their booth atop the grandstand roof.

As Fisher told it, three of the four stewards subsequently admitted to him that Head Play, not Brokers Tip, appeared to be the winner of the 59th Derby. But the chief steward, Charles Price, overruled his colleagues and dismissed Fisher's claim of foul, declaring Brokers Tip the winner by a nose. One reason for this decision, Fisher believed, was that the naked eye always favors the inside horse—Brokers Tip, in this case. But even more important, as Fisher saw it, was that Brokers Tip was owned by the Idle Hour Stock Farm of Colonel E.R. Bradley.

"Bradley was the king of Kentucky in those days," Fisher told me in 1983 during an interview for the Louisville Courier-Journal. "Gave away hundreds of thousands to charity. No way [the stewards] weren't going to give it to him. If that had been me on his horse, I'd have won it."

"Bradley was the king of Kentucky in those days," Fisher told me in 1983 during an interview for the Louisville Courier-Journal. "Gave away hundreds of thousands to charity. No way [the stewards] weren't going to give it to him. If that had been me on his horse, I'd have won it."

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vau...#ixzz1JVPxIh3n

[slotdirt]

If Broker's Tip were standing today, I'd totally be reserving "Just the Tip" with the Jockey Club.

[Sightseek]

Originally Posted by robfla

I remember reading an article where at the time, there was no photo finish camera, or any other such technology, and that there were 4 stewards in the grandstand with binoculars making the decision on the finish. The owner of Broker's Tip was very charitable to Kentucky, so they favored Broker's Tip in the decision. So, in reality, Broker's Tip could have easily retired a maiden.



http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vau...#ixzz1JVPxIh3n

The story of the photographer is equally interesting. He was a drunk and had passed out, but the noise of the crowd woke him up. He lifted his camera and took the shot having no idea what he captured.