Tampa Downs lowering takeout, minimums on exotics

NTamm1215 · #1 12-02-2009, 12:09 PM

This is from the HANA blog.

HANA had a phone chat with Tampa Bay Downs' Peter Berube about everything Tampa

A track lowering takeout? A track catering with on-track rewards programs? A track where the customer feels like he is wanted? These appear to be all things being tried at the Florida oval that is Tampa bay Downs.

Reaching Peter Berube by phone was not at all difficult. He is a player, and wants to talk racing. It is no secret that thoroughbred racing is going through tough times. If we had only held inflation since 1998 our overall handle would be approaching $19B. Instead, we are approaching $12B in 2009.

"We like many have lost the bigger player and they are tough to get back", says Berube.

At HANA this is no secret as our players have said they are playing less, or not playing much at all as compared to yesteryear. Bankroll growth, and interest in the game from the serious players perspective has lessened.

Despite this loss, Tampa is holding their own, and are doing so with good old fashioned price cutting and customer service. This year they have lowered takeout yet again. Only five years ago their takeout was almost 26% blended on exotics and close to 19% in WPS. This year, takeout on WPS pools is 17.5%, doubles 18%, horizontals 19%, exactas 20.5% and tris and supers 25.9%.

"I'm a player so I know about churn and takeout. Right now we are not seeing any major change in revenues, so if we can we will keep lowering it to find the right spot." says Peter.

In addition Tampa has added 50 cent pick 4's and tris, which as part of the HANA track ratings system was welcomed by horseplayers.

"I know that is something you [HANA] have asked for. I measure this and have for years, so we should be able to see if those bets help us", said Peter.

It does not stop there. Tampa has an ontrack player rewards program which is excellent. If you bet $8000 over the meet, for example, expect a 1.25% rebate. This places their effective takeout with the best overall tracks to play in North America in terms of price.

The exotics (pick 3 and pick 4) make for an interesting case study, and HANA believes that horseplayers should be well aware of how these lower prices can help him/her.

Let's do a simulation:

Player A plays $24 pick 3's at Tampa. He is a losing player and gets $110 back for each $120 bet in the pick 3's.

Player B plays at a track those same pick 3's in $24 bets, but at this track, the pick 3's have a 25% takeout.

What happens?

Player "A" at Tampa with the local rebate and lower takeout bets $118.50 for a return of $110, therefore experiencing bankroll shrinkage of $8.50 for each 5 bet sequence. Player "B" bets a full $120 for a return of $101.85 @ a 25% rake therefore loses $18.15 for each 5 bet sequence.

The Tampa player can churn $2808 (118 bets) before hitting ruin. Player "B" at the high takeout track will churn $1320 (55 bets) before going broke. The track nets $491.40 from player "A" (17.5% of $2808) and $330.00 from player "B" (25% of 1320).

In effect, you can play twice as long at Tampa with your bankroll as you can at the high takeout track!

This is not lost on players. It is a long held customer service contention that if you can turn your most ardent critics, you are doing something right. Rich Bauer is a player who takes his game very seriously. He after all, is the creator of Trackthieves.com, a website which informs players that racetracks are not doing what needs to be done for their customers. He is very dedicated to playing tracks that only he feels respect him, as we all should. When contacted, this often times vocal critic had this to say about Tampa:

"I've been going to Tampa since the winter of 2004. This year I will be there for all of January. It's about a 12-hour drive from where I live which can be done in a day although I usually break the trip into 2 days. I never really considered South Florida or SoCal for a racing vacation since I retired in 2004. Although we now stay on the Gulf, so it's about a 35-minute drive to the track, there are plenty of reasonable motel/hotel accommodations within a mile or two of the track. The place is clean and well kept. The employees are exceptionally friendly. The racing has improved every year and the turf course is as good as it gets. Valet parking is two bucks. So, what's not to like?

Tampa has been reducing takeout selectively and permanently for what I believe is now four years. Can you point to ANY OTHER RACETRACK that has done that? They do not have the luxury of being part of a major circuit. They do not have the luxury of significant purse supplements from alternative gaming. The management has a record of making measured changes in the betting platform as well as takeout and then monitoring how those changes affect their business. From a business perspective, it's hard to argue with their approach or their results."

In our recently conducted HANA survey, 59.6% of you said you would move a good portion of your play to a track that caters to your takeout needs. Tampa appears to be that track, so we encourage members to give this place a look. Nice weather, pretty deep fields, low takeout as compared to others where you will keep more in your pocket.

As Rich said "What's not to like?"

http://blog.horseplayersassociation....trying-to.html

NT

SlewsMyHero · #2 12-02-2009, 03:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NTamm1215

Let's do a simulation:

Player A plays $24 pick 3's at Tampa. He is a losing player and gets $110 back for each $120 bet in the pick 3's.

Player B plays at a track those same pick 3's in $24 bets, but at this track, the pick 3's have a 25% takeout.

What happens?

Player "A" at Tampa with the local rebate and lower takeout bets $118.50 for a return of $110, therefore experiencing bankroll shrinkage of $8.50 for each 5 bet sequence. Player "B" bets a full $120 for a return of $101.85 @ a 25% rake therefore loses $18.15 for each 5 bet sequence.

The Tampa player can churn $2808 (118 bets) before hitting ruin. Player "B" at the high takeout track will churn $1320 (55 bets) before going broke. The track nets $491.40 from player "A" (17.5% of $2808) and $330.00 from player "B" (25% of 1320).

In effect, you can play twice as long at Tampa with your bankroll as you can at the high takeout track!
http://blog.horseplayersassociation....trying-to.html

NT

Why is this so damn difficult for other track execs and state legislators to understand. The example above is crystal clear. While it is theoretical, it is sound. The player can hang in longer, churning more dollars through the windows, and the track(and State) makes more revenue. Hello!

I love Tampa Bay Downs. It became my favorite of all tracks a few years ago when they installed their turf course. Brilliant moves by management.

Scav · #3 12-02-2009, 04:03 PM

Tampa might understand takeout, but they are complete morons for changing their schedule around and not running on Tuesdays, going up against NY and Gulfstream day in and day out is going to hurt their bottom line

Bigsmc · #4 12-02-2009, 04:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Scav

Tampa might understand takeout, but they are complete morons for changing their schedule around and not running on Tuesdays, going up against NY and Gulfstream day in and day out is going to hurt their bottom line

NTamm1215 · #5 12-02-2009, 04:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Scav

Tampa might understand takeout, but they are complete morons for changing their schedule around and not running on Tuesdays, going up against NY and Gulfstream day in and day out is going to hurt their bottom line

I haven't crunched the numbers but sometimes two slices of a 20" pizza is better than a whole personal 8". I went with a pizza analogy with you being Mr. Chicago now.

My point being that there are so few simulcast dollars in play on Tuesdays.

NT

10 pnt move up · #6 12-02-2009, 04:11 PM

Its nice they lowered them but man those are some really high take rates compared to other circuits...isnt socal 16% WPS and 20% exotics? I think Ky may be lower than that.

golfer · #7 12-02-2009, 04:11 PM

If the racing weren't so cheap (most of the time) and the jockey colony so horrifying (all the time), this might be one of the top tracks in the country.

Travis Stone · #8 12-02-2009, 04:18 PM

The Tuesday switch made a lot of sense for them. Tampa does a great job of managing its product on a day-to-day basis when up against the big guns. They find the right spots to run and often have a compelling race to offer.

Bigsmc · #9 12-02-2009, 04:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NTamm1215

I haven't crunched the numbers but sometimes two slices of a 20" pizza is better than a whole personal 8". I went with a pizza analogy with you being Mr. Chicago now.

My point being that there are so few simulcast dollars in play on Tuesdays.

NT

I don't have any numbers to go on (just my horrible memory), but I recall TBD raving about their Tuesday handle when they started running regularly on Tuesdays 7 or 8 years ago. They actually ran a Stake on Tuesday (moved from a Saturday) one year that had the weekend warriors howling because they couldn't see it.

Perhaps those great Tuesday numbers slipped the past few years...

Cannon Shell · #10 12-02-2009, 04:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bigsmc

I don't have any numbers to go on (just my horrible memory), but I recall TBD raving about their Tuesday handle when they started running regularly on Tuesdays 7 or 8 years ago. They actually ran a Stake on Tuesday (moved from a Saturday) one year that had the weekend warriors howling because they couldn't see it.

Perhaps those great Tuesday numbers slipped the past few years...

NYC OTB was a big factor, dont know how or if that has changed.

freddymo · #11 12-02-2009, 05:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Travis Stone

The Tuesday switch made a lot of sense for them. Tampa does a great job of managing its product on a day-to-day basis when up against the big guns. They find the right spots to run and often have a compelling race to offer.

I love betting Tampa although with the new wiz kid Jaime P Ness it has lost a bit of its charm.. The opt allowance grass race is at 1 1/16th is my fav race to bet till Belmont opens

Duvalier · #12 12-02-2009, 05:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by freddymo

I love betting Tampa although with the new wiz kid Jaime P Ness it has lost a bit of its charm.. The opt allowance grass race is at 1 1/16th is my fav race to bet till Belmont opens

Is he going back down Tampa? He seems to have found his niche up North.

freddymo · #13 12-02-2009, 05:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Duvalier

Is he going back down Tampa? He seems to have found his niche up North.

Ipecac:

Jamie Ness earned his first training title in the 2006-07 campaign; this year, the South Dakota native took home his trid straigt training title with 62 wins in 94 days of racing. Ness has experienced great success not only with the existing horses in his barn but with his recent claims as well. “I make my living out of the claiming box,” says Ness of his success with newly acquired horses. “I do my homework and study the horses on and off the track, and I look at the trainers’ tendencies. I don’t have two-year-olds and I don’t have stakes horses. It’s a blue-collar barn so I need to know what I’ve got.” His biggest success story is multiple Tampa Bay Downs stakes winner Lookinforthesecret. Ness claimed Lookinforthesecret for $12,500 at the beginning of the 2006-07 Tampa Bay Downs meet, and within five starts moved the gelding from the claiming ranks to stakes caliber.

Ness gained an interest in horse racing through both his father and grandfather. “My grandfather took me to the track when I was four years old, and I’ve been hooked ever since,” say Ness. He cites his greatest influence in the sport as his father, saying, “My father was a trainer, and I grew up in the summers going to tracks with him to work. Racing got into my blood at an early age. My father is a very good horseman and he showed me how to do it the hard way, without any big owners or big horses.” Ness has had great success with his “blue-collar” horses and though he keeps his barn open to many jockeys, he credits Daniel Centeno as his go-to rider. When he’s not at the barn – “which isn’t often!” he says, he plays basketball at local gyms.

Chuck will be listed as the trainer of record for Ness at TB but he is just the 'beard"

Bigsmc · #14 12-02-2009, 05:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Duvalier

Is he going back down Tampa? He seems to have found his niche up North.

He has 40 stalls at Tampa.

Duvalier · #15 12-02-2009, 05:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bigsmc

He has 40 stalls at Tampa.

Thanks. Didn't he run into some trouble down there at the end of last year's meet?

ateamstupid · #16 12-02-2009, 05:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 10 pnt move up

Its nice they lowered them but man those are some really high take rates compared to other circuits...isnt socal 16% WPS and 20% exotics? I think Ky may be lower than that.

17.5% WPS may be a tad high, but it's far from 'really high'. Gulfstream and Fair Grounds are both 17%, while Turfway is 17.5% as well. Calder is 18%.

Meanwhile, 19% on horizontals is vastly better than anything else running this winter. The only tracks that even come close are GP at 20% and HOL/SA at 20 and change.