Beyer Questions???????

[Ogygian]

I need a little bit of help regarding the Beyer speed figures....
What exactly does a horse have to do to get a Beyer rating more then 120? Let alone more then a 115??? Quality Road shatters a track record and only gets a 110? Rachel just misses and gets a 116, Fabulous Strike just missed Artax's track record and gets a 111 ( Groovy set the record and gets a 133 or 132).
The highest Beyer the last 2 years is a 120, set by Commentator in the Whitney...which was the slowest Whitney in 42 years. Just doesnt seem right...
Is it just me or are the Beyers getting slower? Records are still falling, training is more advanced...Why are there only 2 Beyers over 115 this year?
According to the DRF the Beyer scale is as follows...

57 +- Bottom level $2,500 claimers at smaller tracks
80 +- A typical $10,000 claimer
90 +- A typical $25,000 claiming race
100 +- Good allowance horse or low grade stakes horse
115 +- The best horses in the country

So....Quality Road is a "Good allowance horse or low grade stake"? Same with Strike...I guess the same with every stakes winner this year...Derby, Preakness, Belmont...Low grade stakes????
And only Rachel and This One's for Phil are the "Best" horses in the country?

Is it possible the claimers, maidens, allowance horses are getting faster?

I look back and see a 128 for Ghostzapper, Groovy gets a 133 and 132, Lava Man 120...

Are we ever going to see a number over 120 again?

[Left Bank]

Easy.Don't believe everything you read from DRF.

[the_fat_man]

Sounds like the making of a research paper or even a DRF book.

And here I am thinking the Nea Platonists or the Aristotelian commentators (not related to THE Commentator, the horse) were THE most devoted followers in history. But they have nothing on the Beyerites. This is approaching cult status (we're in Epicurus territory now).

This is ****in' amazing. Years from now, people will still be quoting Beyer and following his method. (Over on other forums, they practically WORSHIP Sartin. There are many over there who invested countless time and money in seminars and books/programs put out by Sartin. Damn, the game is hard to beat but not that hard. )

It took until the 17th century for a REVOLUTION in science. Yet, here we are 400 years later and so many are still living in the GEOCENTRIC universe of (someone else's) figures. Go figure.

It's getting harder and harder to keep from falling down everytime I read (or write) some of this stuff.

[hockey2315]

Times w/o track variant mean absolutely nothing.

[The Indomitable DrugS]

Originally Posted by hockey2315

Times w/o track variant mean absolutely nothing.

Truer words are rarely spoken.

[Ogygian]

Originally Posted by hockey2315

Times w/o track variant mean absolutely nothing.

Times without track variant were part of the sport since the beginning of racing.
What happened to the day when a horse ran and we say wow, he ran a 1:13...now the first and only thing we here is "he ran a 110"

So...are we ever going to see a 120 Beyer again?

[The Indomitable DrugS]

Originally Posted by Ogygian

I need a little bit of help regarding the Beyer speed figures....
What exactly does a horse have to do to get a Beyer rating more then 120? Let alone more then a 115??? Quality Road shatters a track record and only gets a 110? Rachel just misses and gets a 116, Fabulous Strike just missed Artax's track record and gets a 111 ( Groovy set the record and gets a 133 or 132).
The highest Beyer the last 2 years is a 120, set by Commentator in the Whitney...which was the slowest Whitney in 42 years. Just doesnt seem right...
Is it just me or are the Beyers getting slower? Records are still falling, training is more advanced...Why are there only 2 Beyers over 115 this year?
According to the DRF the Beyer scale is as follows...

57 +- Bottom level $2,500 claimers at smaller tracks
80 +- A typical $10,000 claimer
90 +- A typical $25,000 claiming race
100 +- Good allowance horse or low grade stakes horse
115 +- The best horses in the country

So....Quality Road is a "Good allowance horse or low grade stake"? Same with Strike...I guess the same with every stakes winner this year...Derby, Preakness, Belmont...Low grade stakes????
And only Rachel and This One's for Phil are the "Best" horses in the country?

Is it possible the claimers, maidens, allowance horses are getting faster?

I look back and see a 128 for Ghostzapper, Groovy gets a 133 and 132, Lava Man 120...

Are we ever going to see a number over 120 again?

Remind me, i'll let you borrow a few books that will better help your understanding of the subject.

The race after Quality Road's Amsterdam .. a pair of dead on the board 20K maiden claimers went 1:09 and change.

There are A LOT of questionable figures over the course of a year .. but like Hockey says ... times are worthless without a track variant.

And speed figures are worthless in situations when you feel like you can't trust the variant.

[geeker2]

If you slip Andy a quiet $20 he will add a few points to your horses number..if you give Jerry Brown $25 he will subtract -1. I think Sarin is dead.

[cmorioles]

Originally Posted by The Indomitable DrugS

Remind me, i'll let you borrow a few books that will better help your understanding of the subject.

The race after Quality Road's Amsterdam .. a pair of dead on the board 20K maiden claimers went 1:09 and change.

There are A LOT of questionable figures over the course of a year .. but like Hockey says ... times are worthless without a track variant.

And speed figures are worthless in situations when you feel like you can't trust the variant.

And speed figures are worthless in situations when you feel like you can't trust the timer.

[VOL JACK]

My head is hurting

[Ogygian]

Originally Posted by The Indomitable DrugS

Remind me, i'll let you borrow a few books that will better help your understanding of the subject.

The race after Quality Road's Amsterdam .. a pair of dead on the board 20K maiden claimers went 1:09 and change.

There are A LOT of questionable figures over the course of a year .. but like Hockey says ... times are worthless without a track variant.

And speed figures are worthless in situations when you feel like you can't trust the variant.

Thanks Doug....still need to answer my question though...Are we going to see another 120 Beyer? What does a horse have to do to get that high of a mark?
You said a pair of dead on the board maiden claimers went 1:09 and change...Is it possible those maiden claimers nowadays are a bit faster then the maiden claimers 20 years ago?
Did Road need to run a 1:12 then?

[philcski]

Originally Posted by Ogygian

Thanks Doug....still need to answer my question though...Are we going to see another 120 Beyer? What does a horse have to do to get that high of a mark?
You said a pair of dead on the board maiden claimers went 1:09 and change...Is it possible those maiden claimers nowadays are a bit faster then the maiden claimers 20 years ago?
Did Road need to run a 1:12 then?

Rachel should have gotten a 121 on Sunday. They split the variant a couple times even after the rains so she didn't, justified or unjustified remains to be seen.

[The Indomitable DrugS]

Originally Posted by Ogygian

Thanks Doug....still need to answer my question though...Are we going to see another 120 Beyer? What does a horse have to do to get that high of a mark?
You said a pair of dead on the board maiden claimers went 1:09 and change...Is it possible those maiden claimers nowadays are a bit faster then the maiden claimers 20 years ago?
Did Road need to run a 1:12 then?

Yes - you will obviously see another 120

In order to get that high of a mark .. a horse will probably have to be extremely good, probably have to have a favorable trip, and certainly have to run extremely fast in relation to the speed of the racetrack.

Yes it's possible that maiden claimers now a days are faster than 20 years ago. If you look at the Thoro-Graph figures .. claimers now a days are faster than Alysheba. That's why I prefer to use Beyer figures when comparing horses from different generations. They are very solid and consistant over the last 20 years in that regard IMO.

If Quality Road would have run a 120 ... that means Comeback would have had to run an 80 Beyer .. for running 4th in a 20K maiden claimer .. despite having been "pinched back at break. Checked far turn."

Cannon Shell was the former trainer of Comeback .. ask him if he thinks he could run an 80 Beyer on dirt. He ran a 53 and 45 in his two dirt races for him.

[The Indomitable DrugS]

Originally Posted by cmorioles

And speed figures are worthless in situations when you feel like you can't trust the timer.

I thought you lobbed this softball over the plate nicely for The Fat Man to chime in about how we need Trackus.

Since he didn't bother ... I think all respectable race tracks should get Trackus.

[CSC]

I don't have stacks of stats at my disposal as some here, but I always take Saratoga dirt beyers with abit of salt, it seems to me there have been some abnormally high beyers earned here that cause me to atleast be abit skeptical, I will cite one, sprinter Left Bank and his 121 in the Whitney, I know Commentator has earned close to 120, I'm sure I will be reminded of many more, coincidence or not it seems like some of the higher profile performances are given big numbers.

[Smooth Operator]

Originally Posted by Ogygian

I look back and see a 128 for Ghostzapper, Groovy gets a 133 and 132, Lava Man 120...

Are we ever going to see a number over 120 again?

Pretty sure we'll see another BSF greater than 120.



Pretty sure we won't see another one as good as GZ anytime soon, though...

[VOL JACK]

Originally Posted by The Indomitable DrugS

Yes - you will obviously see another 120

In order to get that high of a mark .. a horse will probably have to be extremely good, probably have to have a favorable trip, and certainly have to run extremely fast in relation to the speed of the racetrack.

Yes it's possible that maiden claimers now a days are faster than 20 years ago. If you look at the Thoro-Graph figures .. claimers now a days are faster than Alysheba. That's why I prefer to use Beyer figures when comparing horses from different generations. They are very solid and consistant over the last 20 years in that regard IMO.

If Quality Road would have run a 120 ... that means Comeback would have had to run an 80 Beyer .. for running 4th in a 20K maiden claimer .. despite having been "pinched back at break. Checked far turn."

Cannon Shell was the former trainer of Comeback .. ask him if he thinks he could run an 80 Beyer on dirt. He ran a 53 and 45 in his two dirt races for him.

But, according to most of the board, he is now with the Magical Move-up Mike Maker.

[The Indomitable DrugS]

Originally Posted by CSC

I don't have stacks of stats at my disposal as some here, but I always take Saratoga dirt beyers with abit of salt, it seems to me there have been some abnormally high beyers earned here that cause me to atleast be abit skeptical, I will cite one, sprinter Left Bank and his 121 in the Whitney, I know Commentator has earned close to 120, I'm sure I will be reminded of many more, coincidence or not it seems like some of the higher profile performances are given big numbers.

Left Bank's 121 Beyer was fairly cut and dry.

He ran a 121 in his prior start.

2nd place Street Cry ran a 119 in his prior start.

3rd place Lido Palace ran a 113 last time out


He ran 9 furlongs in a track record equaling 1:47 flat.

The only other 9 furlong dirt race of the day was won by Connie's Magic in 1:51.59

Connie's Magic, in victory, ran a mere 44 points less than the time for Left Bank's win.

Connie's Magic returned the following Wednesday to win by 5 lengths and pay $6.70 going nine furlongs. He did so despite breaking from the 11 hole and going 5 wide on both turns. His Beyer was a few points higher than what he got when he won the day he went 4.59 seconds slower than Left Bank for the distance.

[The Indomitable DrugS]

Originally Posted by VOL JACK

[/b]

But, according to most of the board, he is now with the Magical Move-up Mike Maker.

Your friend Maker did move him up. He tends to do that.

[RockHardTen1985]

Originally Posted by Ogygian

I need a little bit of help regarding the Beyer speed figures....
What exactly does a horse have to do to get a Beyer rating more then 120? Let alone more then a 115??? Quality Road shatters a track record and only gets a 110? Rachel just misses and gets a 116, Fabulous Strike just missed Artax's track record and gets a 111 ( Groovy set the record and gets a 133 or 132).
The highest Beyer the last 2 years is a 120, set by Commentator in the Whitney...which was the slowest Whitney in 42 years. Just doesnt seem right...
Is it just me or are the Beyers getting slower? Records are still falling, training is more advanced...Why are there only 2 Beyers over 115 this year?
According to the DRF the Beyer scale is as follows...

57 +- Bottom level $2,500 claimers at smaller tracks
80 +- A typical $10,000 claimer
90 +- A typical $25,000 claiming race
100 +- Good allowance horse or low grade stakes horse
115 +- The best horses in the country

So....Quality Road is a "Good allowance horse or low grade stake"? Same with Strike...I guess the same with every stakes winner this year...Derby, Preakness, Belmont...Low grade stakes????
And only Rachel and This One's for Phil are the "Best" horses in the country?

Is it possible the claimers, maidens, allowance horses are getting faster?

I look back and see a 128 for Ghostzapper, Groovy gets a 133 and 132, Lava Man 120...

Are we ever going to see a number over 120 again?

http://www.derbytrail.com/forums/sho...ers+understand


I think we could see a 120 Beyer this Saturday.