The public doesnt care about the breeding. It is the conenctions the people are cheering for. If Smarty Jones was owned by the Sheiks and Lion Tamer was owned by the Chapman's than the public would have been for Lion Tamer. Most people who watch the Derby have no clue who Storm Cat, Native Dancer, AP Indy etc etc are. Breeding has ZERO effect on who the public likes and doesnt.

Yes it does. Horses are taken off the track too early to breed.

And the notion that racing fans are just gambling addicts and gambling addicts input all the money from the fan interest end is not true.

New owners and new fans. How to attract them.
Again I sense a very skeptical view that racing cannot change. Racing used to be huge in comparison with other sports. NASCAR has captured a huge fan base. The sport is stuck in the muck without some new ideas. The fractured nature of the sport with all its different entities all worried about their own territory... the willingness of bloodstock agents to work with trainers and breeders to rip off owners... the list goes on.

Breeding doesn't directly influence them. But who is buying up all the Storm Cat and AP Indy colts? Its not the Chapmans or the Sackatoga stables; its the sheikhs and the ultra rich.

< too weak to get excited about Bernardini's future as a sire. >

WE'LL HAVE TO WAIT AND SEE...I'VE BEEN STUDYING PEDIGREES LONG ENOUGH TO MAKE THE EDUCATED GUESS THAT HE HAS A CHANCE TO SERIOUSLY IMPACT THE BREED AND GET TOP CLASS PERFORMERS....HIS PEDIGREE AND BRILLIANCE ALONG WITH THE FACT THAT HE'LL GET ALL OF DUBAI'S BEST MARES FROM THE NORTHERN DANCER SIRELINE (because why would they support Lane's End with A.P. Indy when they can get to that blood with their own brilliant stud?)....IT IS VERY EASY TO SEE HIM BECOMING A SIRE OF SIRES - AND SIRES OF SIRES IMPACT THE GAME AS MUCH AS ANY HORSE CAN...

< Besides, the most noteworthy change in the breed in the last 25 years is the apparent increase in fragility. >

THE DAMAGE IS DONE AND THIS PROBABLY AND SADLY WILL NEVER CHANGE...THE GAME HAS EVOLVED AND BUYERS WANT PRECOCIOUS HORSES WITH LASER QUICK LOOKS AND PEDIGREES TO POTENTIALLY STRETCH...THAT IS WHAT BUYERS ARE CALLING FOR AND THAT IS WHAT SELLERS ARE GOING TO GIVE THEM....IF YOU WANT TO CHANGE THE MARKET THEN YOU MAY WANT TO START BREEDING AND SELLING SOUND ROUTE HORSES, BUT IT WON"T BE VERY PROFITABLE FOR YOU BECAUSE NOBODY WANTS SOMETHING THEY HAVE TO WAIT ON TO DEVELOPE....THAT IS JUST THE UGLY TRUTH ABOUT THE BUYER'S MARKET IN OUR GAME...HORSES ARE BRED TO BE FRAGILE NOW SO THAT THEY ARE IRONICALLY FASHIONABLE TO BUYERS....JUST THE FACTS AND IT WILL PROBABLY NEVER CHANGE...SORRY MAN, YOU NEED TO GET OVER THAT LIKE THE PEOPLE WHO ARE TRYING TO SAVE ON-TRACK ATTENDANCE...THAT IS ANOTHER ASPECT OF THE GAME THAT IS SIMPLY A THING OF THE PAST AND PROBABLY WILL NEVER CHANGE...HATE TO BREAK IT TO YOU LIKE THAT...

< I don't think you know what the gambler wants. As a serious gambler, I want to bet horses that run frequently. >

I THINK I KNOW AS WELL AS ANYBODY WHAT THE SERIOUS GAMBLER WANTS, HOWEVER I WANT TO LIVE UNTIL I'm A HUNDRED TOO, BUT HAVE NO CONTROL OVER THAT...I UNDERSTAND YOUR CONCERN, BUT THE FACT IS THAT IT WILL NEVER CHANGE BECAUSE TRAINERS AND HORSEMEN JUST DON"T CAMPAIGN HORSES LIKE THE OLD DAYS ANYMORE AND THEY WON'T CHANGE BECAUSE HORSES JUST WILL NOT GET BETTER BUILT...COLD, HARD FACT..

< But I'm pretty certain that the typical horseplayer would not say that the breed needs another good sire. >

WHY THE HELL NOT?..EVERYBODY GETS EXCITED ABOUT NEW, GOOD BLOOD IN OUR GAME....LOOK AT THE PEOPLE EXCITED ABOUT OFFICER AND JOHANNESBURG THIS YEAR, AND THE PEOPEL THAT CANNOT WAIT TO SEE VINDICATION'S BABIES SELL IN THE RING THIS YEAR AND RACE NEXT YEAR....THE GAME CAN ALWAYS NEED GOOD, NEW BLOOD....ALWAYS...A.P. INDY WON't BE AROUND FOREVER AND WE NEED HORSES LIKE MINESHAFT AND BERNARDINI TO CARRY THAT LEGACY AND BLOODLINE....JUST LOOK AT SEATTLE SLEW NOW...HE IS DEAD AND NOW HE ONLY HAS A COUPLE SONS THAT HAVE ANY PROMISE OF BEING GOOD SIRES TO CARRY HIS BLOOD ALONG FOR GENERATIONS TO COME AND THEY ARE A.P. INDY AND VINDICATION AND THE REST OF HIS SONS ARE LITTLE PLAYERS.... THERE IS DEFINATELY A REASON TO GET EXCITED ABOUT NEW DYNAMIC STALLIONS...

I agree with this statement....Smarty was good against a subpar group of 3yos, but I think Bernardini has a chace to be special...too early to tell though...we'll see..

Well, Joel, the actual " gambler ", or the person betting enough money to actually help support this game, is on average pretty unconcerned with the higher level racing, and thus these top horses that run infrequently don't really affect us.

It's much more about the 4th race on a Thursday than it is about the Travers. The Travers may be a lot more interesting to talk about but it is highly unlikely to be as interesting to bet as the Thursday mid day race.

Yeah, but the average public and casual face fans do NOT support this game...the bettors do...

Yeah, but check out the handle on the feature races on every card throughout America and compare it to just the average $10K claimers running in the 4th on a Thurs. afternoon at Thistledowns....the handle is astronomically bigger for the bigger races, which means that thgere is defiantely a coorelation between the dynamic nature of better racing and betting behavior.....just pure statistics....if people wanted to bet bad horses that run against each other every two weeks all of the time then Calder would have the biggest handle in our game because that is what they are good at, however, that is just not the case...

Bettors love to bet on races that 'matter' and they want to bet on good horses....If you play simo on any day from Thursday - Sunday, you can find 10-20 good races to bet on and be well-entertained and occupied without having to bet the 2nd at Fonner Park because it is the only thing to do....customers have shown the pattern that they prefer to bet QUALITY races and not the cheap nags.....Hell, look at the Derby...if Churchill Downs were to not run that one single race then they would lose over $200 million....Quality does matter and good horses breed quality...Obviously, quantity plays into it as well, but there is defiantely a handle pattern that suggests strongly that quality racing is heads and shoulders more profitable than the full field of maiden claimers assembled at Fairmont...

thats why wed thru sunday is the time to play/...and a side note..th only time to play arlington is million days..

Well,
I can not argue that the racing game has now become the breeding game and that superbly-bred top racehorses run simply so they can command top dollar stud fees. However, Smarty Jones was retired early and he does not have what you'd call a great pedigree, although it's a nice one. So, it's not only the AP Indys and Storm Cats being retired.

If people want to root against Bernardini because of his pedigree and connections, that's their business and they have that right. My favorites are my favorites even if racing fans dislike them; I don't like the reverse snobbism, but it is what it is

Patrick its a gambling drive game, get that through your head. WHo cares if he have 10 million new fans who don't gamble on it? What ****ing good will it do the game? You sit there and rail on and on about attracting the type of fans who will bring little Sally and little Sally to the track with a picnic basket, thats all fine and well but if they dont bet who cares? The industry is driven by gambling, and yeah we need new fans, the kind who bet. Other wise what good are they for the industry?

Exactly--it is more important to bring the right fans to the game instead of attracting the wrong fans.

Well put. Pgardn I really don't get you, not even a little bit. You aren't an owner so why do you care what trainers or bloodstock agents do? And why would you care about fans who don't bet? How does that affect you?
Bottom line is that gambling drives the industry. More gambling, higher purses, more owners, more breeders, more new owners, etc. Its not rocket science to see this.
Do you really think that racetracks want more customers or more money bet? Its the money they seek, which comes from gambling.

Perhaps, then, there is no such thing as a particular animal being good for the game.....or we need to differentiate between what's good for the bettors (those who don't care about the horses and just like to gamble) and what's good for the actual racing fans.

I'm sure hardcore gamblers do not give a fig about Bernardini...or Barbaro or any other really top horse, as long as they continue picking winners (at Belmont or Finger Lakes or wherever racing is conducted). However, actual racing fans, who care about the horses and follow the sport (and don't necessarily bet) like to see good horses....that's what I mean by Bernardini being good for the sport (especially after Barbaro's breakdown). I could be dead wrong about him having any effect on fans or the sport in general; in that case, I will just have to hope he wins big simply because he's a favorite of mine.

I agree...but......



Let's not discourage little Sally from coming to Siro's after the races.

I love this game more than anyone but Patrick let me give you an example of what happens when "fans" get attracted to the game, even for a day.
Sundays up here in Saratoga they have giveaway days. T shirts, bobbleheads, etc. Basically everyone within a 50 mile radius heads to the track for the giveaway and maybe stays to watch the races, party, etc.
Trying to get in the place requires a long wait in line, often shutting you out from the first race. The lines at windows are very long and filled with novices who dont know how to bet properly and spend 2 minutes at the window making one show bet. MOre shutting out. Incredible parking problems and traffic, etc. And for what? So a bunch of folks can get a t shirt. Gee thats just swell. They dont bet enough to make a dent in the handle one bit(these "fans" drawn to get their shirts and hats) and probably cost the track more in handle by shutting out players than they make on the handle the "new" fans bet.
Its why regulars have come to dread Sundays at Saratoga.

Something I will never ever get is the racetrack trying to market themselves as a "family destination." To me that is just weird. I think they should market themselves as a source of clean "adult" entertainment. Sure there should be "family" days. But for the most part, you want people there to drink and gamble.

but when that family shmo hits and ext for 70 bucks hes hooked lol and big betters dont go to family windows ..

but they still buy beer and hotdogs, and pay to park. So the track makes money even if the real followers get screwed. Plus I get to go on sunday's so thats a good reason to show up. lol:D

Lets face it, the problem here is Pgrdn very mistakenly trying to draw a comparison to the needs of racing with needs of football or other sports. Those sports get more than half their revenue from the tv contracts, they need fans to watch or else the ratings are smaller and so is tv money.
Racing just doesnt work that way. Racing depends on money bet on the races. What the hell good is it if we had 100 million new "fans" for that matter who didn't bet? Bottom line is that the days of most tracks beinga destination to go to are over. Home wagering is the future of the industry and the salvation of it as well. Why is football so popular with people to bet through off shore accounts or with the corner bookie? Simple!!! You call in or type in the bet. Order a pizza and grab soda or beer from the fridge and sit in your chair or on your couch and watch football all day long.
Racing needs to be in the living rooms of as many homes as it can be with acessible and easy home wagering companies that are user friendly. Yes going to Saratoga is special, and attending big race days is as well. But does anyone truly want to to go the track on a Wednesday or Thursday if given teh alternative to bet from the comfort of home while eating or drinking whatever you want at low costs as opposed to the 6 dollar beers and hot dogs at the track? No way.