and there's some who criticize native dancer because he never faced tom fool. not exactly consistent....
and yeah, you catch hell for kincsem for good reason.

:):):)

Didn't mean to imply MOW ducked Exterminator himself, rather his connections did. Like I said the top 9 (imo) can all have a case for them being #1 (after the Bid at #6, I have Ribot, Count Fleet and Sea Bird). Zenyatta's placement was a joke to still folks up and it was successful. I have Eclipse at #10 and that's obviously subjective, St Simon, Kelso, Colin, Seattle Slew, Affirmed and Dr Fagar are next.

So Cal Cool (for those who remember him) and I are the only two who respect Kincsem...different eras are always subjective (was Ty Cobb better than Pete Rose?).

i remember socal...but it's difficult enough comparing two horses who ran during the same time period...it's impossible with a hungarian mare who's more myth than reality.

I don't doubt that Kincsem was awesome, but saying she is in the top five ever would be like calling Cap Anson the best player ever because he killed NL pitching in the 1880's.

Exactly! What is the way one measures greatness? It's purely subjective...hell, the Bid and Secretariat never faced each other. Kincsem dominated European racing the way no other horse has...one either looks at her and sees a truly great horse...or not!

Curious how much weight you give turf success? It's one of the reasons why I have Dr. Fager above Bid. I don't think even Bid could have matched Dr. Fager's last three races as a 4yo:

Breaks world record at a mile (132 1/5) while carrying 134. Ran 2nd quarter in 20 1/5.
Wins the 9.5F United Nations on grass while giving two time turf horse of the year, Ft Marcy, 16 lbs. He was 1/5 off track record on soggy turf
Breaks the track record in the 7F Vosburgh by over a second (120 1/5) while carrying 139

Ducked Exterminator? You've got to be kidding. They invited Exterminator to face Man O' War and Sir Barton in their "match race" but Exterminator's connections didn't want to face those 2 horses at 1 1/4. They wanted a longer race. I believe the ideal distance on their part was something like 1 3/4 even though Exterminator had won the Derby at that distance. Exterminator won the Saratoga Cup 4 times at 1 3/4 if you count that walkover. They ducked MOW, not the other way around.

good luck merlinsky. i've argued the point before, and gotten nowhere.

from Wikipedia:
"When Man o' War was three, Kilmer tried for a match race between the two horses. Somehow, Man o' War's owner, Samuel Riddle, although seeming to agree, never managed to have that happen."

From Spiletta.com:
"Mr. Kilmer had spent much of the season attempting to convince Samuel Riddle, the owner of Man o' War, to let his horse meet Exterminator in a match race. Mr. Riddle refused, suggesting that the horses might cross paths without a special match. On August 28, while Exterminator was winning the George Hendrie Memorial from Wildair and the good filly My Dear, Samuel Riddle made the announcement that Man o' War would start in the Saratoga Cup, three days away. Hearing the news, Kilmer immediately sent for Exterminator, but Man o' War was scratched upon the gelding's return to Saratoga."

I'm not really sure how you can historically rate Kinscem. There seems to be such little to go on, and yeah, it's probable that she is overrated, it is also possible she was just a horse that was ahead of the breed at the time.

Secretariat had valid 'excuses' in at least two of those losses though and also ran in a great great crop. Not that the Bid's crop sucked by any means, but the 70 foal crop was loaded.

Has DrugS posted his Exterminator dissertation yet? That would make for good reading.

There were some pretty good European horses over the last 50 years too. People seem to think the best horses only race in the USA.

Horses like Mill Reef, Mumtaz Mahal, Nijinsky, Ribot (already mentioned) have always been interesting reads to me.

Brigadier Gerard was a fascinating horse too. I think he won like 18 of 19.

From his Wiki page:

He entered the season's first colts' classic, the 2,000 Guineas at Newmarket, without a preparatory race. As they lined for the race, Brigadier Gerard, Mill Reef and My Swallow had between them won 18 out of their 19 races.

In one of the most eagerly anticipated races ever, Brigadier Gerard won in devastating fashion by three lengths from Mill Reef and My Swallow. Brigadier Gerard followed that victory with wins in the St. James's Palace Stakes, the Sussex Stakes by five lengths, the Goodwood Mile by ten lengths, the Queen Elizabeth II Stakes by eight lengths, and the Champion Stakes.

At a mile he was unbeatable on anything but very soft ground (he only narrowly won the St James's Palace Stakes on heavy ground). He was kept out of the Epsom Derby by his owners because they were unsure how far he would stay as his pedigree was more that of a miler than a middle distance horse (Mill Reef went on to win the race and was never defeated again). At the end of his three year old season he was undefeated in ten races at distances between five furlongs and a mile and a quarter.

She only won a single important race --- she came into it with a perfect 37-for-37 record and was the 5-2 longest shot on the board in a 3-horse field -- and she got an 8lbs weight break from 2nd place going 2.5 miles.

:rolleyes:

try dorothy ours book. i've read it and recommend it. or even the legends series book. matter of fact, it seems the last time we went into this, i did put up something from dorothy ours and it was never remarked upon by you. perception is reality.

No one who posts here (including myself) is even remotely qualified to talk about comparing and rating past European stars from the last 50 years.

The courses over there and the way everything is handled makes such speculation hopeless.

The respected European racing writers of old don't see her as one of their top horses.

Man O' War was blown way out of proportion.

He was not nearly as fast as people might think. Old Rosebud looked a little faster as a 2yo and Old Rosebud's Kentucky Derby was much, much faster than any Man O' War race except his Belmont.

Man O' War was by far and away the least tested of all the famous horses. His winning times in the Preakness and Travers were in fact, relatively weak compared to other races on the card. His competition he beat was brutally bad.

It's not MOW's fault that he was born into that crop at a time when horse racing was falling apart here because of diminishing purses and gambling outlawed in some key places -- but his connections campaigned him in an extremely unsportsmanlike fashion and most of his wins proved absolutely nothing.

All righty Drugs.

Who was better? The undefeated Hungarian Kinscem, or the undefeated German superstar Nordlicht?

Hitler would have had Kinscem gassed if she beat Nordlicht.

I know nothing about German horse racing. You're asking the wrong guy.

It doesn't seem likely Hitler owned that horse, but the rest of the story for the undefeated star is pretty odd. Taken as war booty, auctioned off to some Americans, including Penny Chenery's father, and becoming a roadside attraction is pretty odd.

How come no love on here for Buckpasser?

Because the thread is about the botched time of the 1973 Preakness and it hadn't spun off to him yet.

Undefeated anythings are almost always overrated.

The ROI on undefeated race horses after two or three races would be terrible.

it seems to me that the legends book on MOW said his first 6f time (in the travers) was the fastest internal time with the horse setting it still managing to win. it was something to that effect...some of his records stood for decades. he probably belongs somewhere between the deity he's taken to be, and the horse you take him to be. i don't think a horse would remain so highly thought of decades after racing if he was as over-rated as you suggest.

give it time, a lot of horses haven't gotten mention yet. round table is one i feel just doesn't get as much respect as he should. definitely underrated.

Regarding his Travers win ... Upset was 2nd beaten 2.5 lengths. That means Upset ran a figure 4 points less than Man O' War's.




Take a look at Upset's past performances and tell me if he looks like a fast horse?


The only other route race on that card was a selling race won by a filly with dismal form (race went 27 points slower than MoW's) and that filly (Marion Hollins) came back and finished a distant 6th in her next two starts, both in claimers.

Man O' War: 108
Upset: 104
Marion Hollins (cheap claiming filly) 81

Ranking Euro horses is tough, no doubt about it...horses like Ribot, Sea Bird, Brigadier Gerard, and Mill Reef were indeed special however and deserving (imo) of high rankings. Same with old timers both in US and Euro such as Kincsem, Eclipse, St Simon, Ormonde and Pot 8 O's.

Matt Hegarty‏@DRFHegarty: DRF and Pimlico have said they will recognize 1:53 as new 1973 Preakness time, giving Secretariat record in all three TC races.

1:53 and how many one-hundredths?

Good to hear, but why did it take 39 years when any idiot with multiple fingers and a stopwatch could have reached the same conclusion in 1973?

1:53.18 per Dorothy Ours on FB.

:tro:

I used 1:53.40 to get his figure of 123 for the Preakness.

Not a Beyer expert or I guess I'd know this, but how does the .22sec shift affect your calculations?

123 becomes 125.

What a great looking stride he had on him:

While this is true, I have a hard time believing that horses like Lammtarra, Frankel, Sea the Stars, Zarkava, Goldikova, Miesque, and Dancing Brave wouldn't have places up pretty high on such lists.

The wise men say "the palest ink is better than the best memory"

Good luck finding any pale ink that would competently allow anyone to rate and compare those horses with each other -- let alone with American dirt runners.