I asked him after the Preakness if he thought Barbaro would have won if he wasn't hurt and he said maybe but Bernardini was likely just as good as Barbaro on the dirt. He thought Barbaro would be the better of the two at the Belmont distance but that Bernardini was going to be an all-time great. They said they knew about Bernardini all along so it wasn't really a surprise. Barbaro still won the big one though and let's just hope he makes it back to the farm.

Barbaro has been great for racing. The amount of support he has gotten is beyond anything any horse has ever gotten, from racing fans and non-racing fans. He is better for racing than Bernardini could ever be. Bernardini's owners don't even show up for his races.

Well, better in what regards?...ust because they are owned by wealthy Shieks doesn't necessarily mean that he is not a good horse for the people...I know that everybodt saw the movie "Dreamer" and that the Shieks are portrayed as the bad guys of the industry in that movie - BUT, in reality the owner is a smaller story to me...Yes, ownerships matter when there is a good blue-collar story, but I don't think Bernardini will necessarily be punished for his owners if he goes on to be great....the media will find a stoyline, trust me....we can sell all types of horses to the American public to make them love us and we willl sell him if he really excells in the national spotlight...

As for the 'better for racing' comment, yeah, we covet our Derby winners and Barbaro had a non-main stream interest like Funny Cide and Smarty Jones did, but that fades with time, too....Look at Funny Cide..he is very average now and his impact has dwindled although he still won a graded event a couple fo weeks go.....the American public grasps the star of the moment and will cling to him if he proves to be worthy...Funny Cide was certainly no Superstar IMO, but the American public didn't understand that and who cares?..the sport got good pub off of the NY gelding and his story...

I think that Bernardini will prove to be 'better for racing' because he is a horse that COULD easily change the breed....he is a beautiful speciment and a beautiful mover and is by one of the most important sires from one of the nicer blue-blood broodmares in our sport.....it is excellence at that level that WILL make him a strong influence on the breed once he retires and goes to the breeding shed....

Additionally, Barbaro's injury has also NOT been the best thing for our game IMO...I know negative publicity is better than no publicity, but when it comes to hurting animals...now there is a very, very sensative subject to the American public and I guarantee it has completely turned off a large number of casual race fans, and away from our game.....

Now, some goods things will and have come from that incident, but it is hard for someone to state that Barabaro will prove to be a greater contributor to this game than Bernardini...that is just my point..

God I think I will throw up. Really, this statement is absolutely nauseating.

Horses like Smarty Jones and Funny Cide are loved because they are not deemed blue bloods.

I consider breeding higher quality horses to add a greater dynamic to racing(which is what Bernardini has a real chance to do...remember, he will get all of Goldolphins best mares that are from the Northern Dancer sireline) is 'better for racing' (as he quoted in making his point) than the attention and notice the sport got for Barbaro....would you really argue that? A casual racing fan probably won't remember who won the '06 Derby in ten years...just a fact....it would take a hint such as "the horse that broke his leg" - and THAT is what they will associate Barabaro with...that is just the cold, hard facts man...

Additionally, horse players who wager on the sport make the game go round, not casual horse fans that only care to watch the Derby and MAYBE the Breeders' Cup....As a very involved horse player who is consistantly supporting this game, I want to see dynamic race horses that go on top make a significant imapct on the breed....I want to bet the future stars out of the regally-bred and talented Bernardini...that is what the lifeblood of out industry - the gambler - wants...

I'm not saying that Barbaro DOES NOT have the impact that Bernardini does or will, but my point is that it is too early to say one way or the other and that you could make a very strong point for Bernardini here......that is my point and its only an opinion....

Elusive Quality stands for $100K and Distorted Humor stands for $150K...Yes, they are well-bred horses........they were blue-collar horses because the story that the media ran with was their blue-collar connections....that doesn't always have to be the same ole song....as a matter of fact, we need another angle...the 'blue-collar connections' angle has been played out in recent years, although it is still a nice angle...

Now I'm sorry, that sounds like sour grapes. It's a real shame that Barbaro broke down, but I will not make him into something greater than he was, nor will I tear down Bernardini or his owners because of it. Bernardini could dominate the summer and fall races and some fans will begrudge him credit because he will not have beaten Barbaro. I just have to :rolleyes: at that. I'm very glad that Barbaro has gotten support from racing and non-racing fans - this could be a very heartwarming story - but sheesh - does Bernardini have to break down to prove how popular he might be? I hope this colt goes on to dominate and to be honest, not just because I love him and feel he has all the promise in the world. It's getting so that I want to stick it to the fans who feel the need (I'm not referring to you necessarily, but to the the fans with Barbaro-colored glasses on) to tear down a talented colt. I despise hypocrites (again, not you)- racing fans clamor for stars and when there is one in their midst, they don't want him to be great because of their own love for another horse.

I also meant in my other post that their would be anti-Sheikh sentiment; for that reason alone, Bernardini will never be as popular as Barbaro. I'm sure the Sheikh loves his horses as much as the Jacksons and that's what counts with me.

Sorry for the rant, but I feel like I can vent here without fear of being attacked (as happens on other boards).......

Game needs new blood. Fans and horses.

The best possible scenario: A horse with a very distant (not highly inbred lineage), big time losing genetic background wins the TC. And the owners are ma and pa.

If you can figure that one out then you could be the COO for any company within this industry....

So what you're saying is that racing fans only latch onto horses that are not viewed as bluebloods? Well, even if that is the case, I don't care. Horses like Bernardini are just as deserving of affection as the those you mentioned above, and if the public doesn't latch onto him, then fine. I don't care; I love the horse and he has a chance to do great things. If fans don't appreciate him (that's IF Bernardini lives up to his promise), well - that's their issue. I don't see any reason why Smarty Jones and Funny Cide are better for the sport than Bernardini; a great horse is a great horse, period.

I agree with a lot of what you've written in this thread, but the correlation of great horse to great offspring is too weak to get excited about Bernardini's future as a sire. Nor do I agree that there is much need for another top sire, unless that sire is going to pass on durability. With 4 races under his belt, it's too soon to speculate whether Bernardini is durable.

A casual racing fan will not be able to mention a single top sire. Nor will the fan care if the breed is perceived to be "getting faster". Besides, the most noteworthy change in the breed in the last 25 years is the apparent increase in fragility.

I don't think you know what the gambler wants. As a serious gambler, I want to bet horses that run frequently. If they run twice then take 6 months off, I will be up against inside information that will out-weigh my own handicapping skills. I could not care less whether I am betting on an off-spring of Bernardini or one of Grindstone. What I want is a horse who runs often enough for me to apply whatever capping insights I think give me an advantage over the public.

For that matter, I don't think I can speak for what the casual gambler wants either. I am only willing to bet when I have good reason to think I have an edge. I don't believe the casual gambler thinks in those terms. But I'm pretty certain that the typical horseplayer would not say that the breed needs another good sire.

And I'm not saying which horse will have the bigger impact on racing either. I'm just finding fault with the reasoning you are using to justify Bernardini's importance.

I completely agree with you re Bernardini vs Corinthian, and also your comments re Discreet Cat.

--Dunbar

Bernardini is better than Smarty or Alex, and unlike the two of them, he might actually stick around to race at four.

Bernardini is better than Smarty or Alex, and unlike the two of them, he might actually stick around to race at four.

I disagree very much, especially in regards to Bernardini being better than Smarty, who was cost a triple crown by dirty riding antics, which we've already been through.

Not yet at this point in his career can you say he is better than Smarty. Hes raced what 4 times? And I am all for horses sticking around until they get old, so I hope to see Bernardini race until he is 6 or 7. I wish Smarty had stuck around and the Belmont did not come up smelling like rotten eggs. He was awesome.

I loved Smarty, and that Belmont annoys me to this day as I'm sure it annoys you.

You're entitled to your opinion, but I feel that Bernardini is better than Smarty or Alex. I don't care how many times he's run. I think he's better.

Cool. I hope he sticks around so we can see it. I like his trainer.

Whats his next race?

The Jim Dandy. I'm an Albertrani fan as well.

3YOs who are better than Corinthian

Barbaro, Bernardini, Discreet Cat, Sweetnorthernsaint, Point Determined, AP Warrior, Minister's Bid, Jazil, Steppenwolfer, Lawyer Ron, Brother Derek, the horse that won the Lexington, the German horse who was beaten a nose in the Arlington Classic, High Cotton, Showing Up. I'll stop at 15 but I'm sure we could find more. Shows how silly a Bernardini vs Corinthian debate is.

Because the game has become a big breeding game and it stinks. Horses are taken off the track very early without a chance to build up any following. This is clearly a problem. Breeding for breedings sake. Lets just breed them and prance them around in front of judges like a dog show. You wanna dog show. I dont want a dog show. I watch racing for the athletes. Not for the conformation or trying to back up my beliefs about why a horse that has won is successful based on his heredity. Let them run.

Did you see Sea Biscuit? Were you rooting for War Admiral? I must admit I bet and rooted for Empire Maker over Funny Cide in the 2003 Belmont but its easy to see why the public pulls for the less regally bred horse. The general public are not rich stuffy aristocrats and they love to see an average Joe take down the "expected champion".

The public doesnt care about the breeding. It is the conenctions the people are cheering for. If Smarty Jones was owned by the Sheiks and Lion Tamer was owned by the Chapman's than the public would have been for Lion Tamer. Most people who watch the Derby have no clue who Storm Cat, Native Dancer, AP Indy etc etc are. Breeding has ZERO effect on who the public likes and doesnt.

Yes it does. Horses are taken off the track too early to breed.

And the notion that racing fans are just gambling addicts and gambling addicts input all the money from the fan interest end is not true.

New owners and new fans. How to attract them.
Again I sense a very skeptical view that racing cannot change. Racing used to be huge in comparison with other sports. NASCAR has captured a huge fan base. The sport is stuck in the muck without some new ideas. The fractured nature of the sport with all its different entities all worried about their own territory... the willingness of bloodstock agents to work with trainers and breeders to rip off owners... the list goes on.

Breeding doesn't directly influence them. But who is buying up all the Storm Cat and AP Indy colts? Its not the Chapmans or the Sackatoga stables; its the sheikhs and the ultra rich.

< too weak to get excited about Bernardini's future as a sire. >

WE'LL HAVE TO WAIT AND SEE...I'VE BEEN STUDYING PEDIGREES LONG ENOUGH TO MAKE THE EDUCATED GUESS THAT HE HAS A CHANCE TO SERIOUSLY IMPACT THE BREED AND GET TOP CLASS PERFORMERS....HIS PEDIGREE AND BRILLIANCE ALONG WITH THE FACT THAT HE'LL GET ALL OF DUBAI'S BEST MARES FROM THE NORTHERN DANCER SIRELINE (because why would they support Lane's End with A.P. Indy when they can get to that blood with their own brilliant stud?)....IT IS VERY EASY TO SEE HIM BECOMING A SIRE OF SIRES - AND SIRES OF SIRES IMPACT THE GAME AS MUCH AS ANY HORSE CAN...

< Besides, the most noteworthy change in the breed in the last 25 years is the apparent increase in fragility. >

THE DAMAGE IS DONE AND THIS PROBABLY AND SADLY WILL NEVER CHANGE...THE GAME HAS EVOLVED AND BUYERS WANT PRECOCIOUS HORSES WITH LASER QUICK LOOKS AND PEDIGREES TO POTENTIALLY STRETCH...THAT IS WHAT BUYERS ARE CALLING FOR AND THAT IS WHAT SELLERS ARE GOING TO GIVE THEM....IF YOU WANT TO CHANGE THE MARKET THEN YOU MAY WANT TO START BREEDING AND SELLING SOUND ROUTE HORSES, BUT IT WON"T BE VERY PROFITABLE FOR YOU BECAUSE NOBODY WANTS SOMETHING THEY HAVE TO WAIT ON TO DEVELOPE....THAT IS JUST THE UGLY TRUTH ABOUT THE BUYER'S MARKET IN OUR GAME...HORSES ARE BRED TO BE FRAGILE NOW SO THAT THEY ARE IRONICALLY FASHIONABLE TO BUYERS....JUST THE FACTS AND IT WILL PROBABLY NEVER CHANGE...SORRY MAN, YOU NEED TO GET OVER THAT LIKE THE PEOPLE WHO ARE TRYING TO SAVE ON-TRACK ATTENDANCE...THAT IS ANOTHER ASPECT OF THE GAME THAT IS SIMPLY A THING OF THE PAST AND PROBABLY WILL NEVER CHANGE...HATE TO BREAK IT TO YOU LIKE THAT...

< I don't think you know what the gambler wants. As a serious gambler, I want to bet horses that run frequently. >

I THINK I KNOW AS WELL AS ANYBODY WHAT THE SERIOUS GAMBLER WANTS, HOWEVER I WANT TO LIVE UNTIL I'm A HUNDRED TOO, BUT HAVE NO CONTROL OVER THAT...I UNDERSTAND YOUR CONCERN, BUT THE FACT IS THAT IT WILL NEVER CHANGE BECAUSE TRAINERS AND HORSEMEN JUST DON"T CAMPAIGN HORSES LIKE THE OLD DAYS ANYMORE AND THEY WON'T CHANGE BECAUSE HORSES JUST WILL NOT GET BETTER BUILT...COLD, HARD FACT..

< But I'm pretty certain that the typical horseplayer would not say that the breed needs another good sire. >

WHY THE HELL NOT?..EVERYBODY GETS EXCITED ABOUT NEW, GOOD BLOOD IN OUR GAME....LOOK AT THE PEOPLE EXCITED ABOUT OFFICER AND JOHANNESBURG THIS YEAR, AND THE PEOPEL THAT CANNOT WAIT TO SEE VINDICATION'S BABIES SELL IN THE RING THIS YEAR AND RACE NEXT YEAR....THE GAME CAN ALWAYS NEED GOOD, NEW BLOOD....ALWAYS...A.P. INDY WON't BE AROUND FOREVER AND WE NEED HORSES LIKE MINESHAFT AND BERNARDINI TO CARRY THAT LEGACY AND BLOODLINE....JUST LOOK AT SEATTLE SLEW NOW...HE IS DEAD AND NOW HE ONLY HAS A COUPLE SONS THAT HAVE ANY PROMISE OF BEING GOOD SIRES TO CARRY HIS BLOOD ALONG FOR GENERATIONS TO COME AND THEY ARE A.P. INDY AND VINDICATION AND THE REST OF HIS SONS ARE LITTLE PLAYERS.... THERE IS DEFINATELY A REASON TO GET EXCITED ABOUT NEW DYNAMIC STALLIONS...

I agree with this statement....Smarty was good against a subpar group of 3yos, but I think Bernardini has a chace to be special...too early to tell though...we'll see..

Well, Joel, the actual " gambler ", or the person betting enough money to actually help support this game, is on average pretty unconcerned with the higher level racing, and thus these top horses that run infrequently don't really affect us.

It's much more about the 4th race on a Thursday than it is about the Travers. The Travers may be a lot more interesting to talk about but it is highly unlikely to be as interesting to bet as the Thursday mid day race.

Yeah, but the average public and casual face fans do NOT support this game...the bettors do...

Yeah, but check out the handle on the feature races on every card throughout America and compare it to just the average $10K claimers running in the 4th on a Thurs. afternoon at Thistledowns....the handle is astronomically bigger for the bigger races, which means that thgere is defiantely a coorelation between the dynamic nature of better racing and betting behavior.....just pure statistics....if people wanted to bet bad horses that run against each other every two weeks all of the time then Calder would have the biggest handle in our game because that is what they are good at, however, that is just not the case...

Bettors love to bet on races that 'matter' and they want to bet on good horses....If you play simo on any day from Thursday - Sunday, you can find 10-20 good races to bet on and be well-entertained and occupied without having to bet the 2nd at Fonner Park because it is the only thing to do....customers have shown the pattern that they prefer to bet QUALITY races and not the cheap nags.....Hell, look at the Derby...if Churchill Downs were to not run that one single race then they would lose over $200 million....Quality does matter and good horses breed quality...Obviously, quantity plays into it as well, but there is defiantely a handle pattern that suggests strongly that quality racing is heads and shoulders more profitable than the full field of maiden claimers assembled at Fairmont...

thats why wed thru sunday is the time to play/...and a side note..th only time to play arlington is million days..

Well,
I can not argue that the racing game has now become the breeding game and that superbly-bred top racehorses run simply so they can command top dollar stud fees. However, Smarty Jones was retired early and he does not have what you'd call a great pedigree, although it's a nice one. So, it's not only the AP Indys and Storm Cats being retired.

If people want to root against Bernardini because of his pedigree and connections, that's their business and they have that right. My favorites are my favorites even if racing fans dislike them; I don't like the reverse snobbism, but it is what it is

Patrick its a gambling drive game, get that through your head. WHo cares if he have 10 million new fans who don't gamble on it? What ****ing good will it do the game? You sit there and rail on and on about attracting the type of fans who will bring little Sally and little Sally to the track with a picnic basket, thats all fine and well but if they dont bet who cares? The industry is driven by gambling, and yeah we need new fans, the kind who bet. Other wise what good are they for the industry?

Exactly--it is more important to bring the right fans to the game instead of attracting the wrong fans.

Well put. Pgardn I really don't get you, not even a little bit. You aren't an owner so why do you care what trainers or bloodstock agents do? And why would you care about fans who don't bet? How does that affect you?
Bottom line is that gambling drives the industry. More gambling, higher purses, more owners, more breeders, more new owners, etc. Its not rocket science to see this.
Do you really think that racetracks want more customers or more money bet? Its the money they seek, which comes from gambling.

Perhaps, then, there is no such thing as a particular animal being good for the game.....or we need to differentiate between what's good for the bettors (those who don't care about the horses and just like to gamble) and what's good for the actual racing fans.

I'm sure hardcore gamblers do not give a fig about Bernardini...or Barbaro or any other really top horse, as long as they continue picking winners (at Belmont or Finger Lakes or wherever racing is conducted). However, actual racing fans, who care about the horses and follow the sport (and don't necessarily bet) like to see good horses....that's what I mean by Bernardini being good for the sport (especially after Barbaro's breakdown). I could be dead wrong about him having any effect on fans or the sport in general; in that case, I will just have to hope he wins big simply because he's a favorite of mine.

I agree...but......



Let's not discourage little Sally from coming to Siro's after the races.

I love this game more than anyone but Patrick let me give you an example of what happens when "fans" get attracted to the game, even for a day.
Sundays up here in Saratoga they have giveaway days. T shirts, bobbleheads, etc. Basically everyone within a 50 mile radius heads to the track for the giveaway and maybe stays to watch the races, party, etc.
Trying to get in the place requires a long wait in line, often shutting you out from the first race. The lines at windows are very long and filled with novices who dont know how to bet properly and spend 2 minutes at the window making one show bet. MOre shutting out. Incredible parking problems and traffic, etc. And for what? So a bunch of folks can get a t shirt. Gee thats just swell. They dont bet enough to make a dent in the handle one bit(these "fans" drawn to get their shirts and hats) and probably cost the track more in handle by shutting out players than they make on the handle the "new" fans bet.
Its why regulars have come to dread Sundays at Saratoga.

Something I will never ever get is the racetrack trying to market themselves as a "family destination." To me that is just weird. I think they should market themselves as a source of clean "adult" entertainment. Sure there should be "family" days. But for the most part, you want people there to drink and gamble.

but when that family shmo hits and ext for 70 bucks hes hooked lol and big betters dont go to family windows ..

but they still buy beer and hotdogs, and pay to park. So the track makes money even if the real followers get screwed. Plus I get to go on sunday's so thats a good reason to show up. lol:D

Lets face it, the problem here is Pgrdn very mistakenly trying to draw a comparison to the needs of racing with needs of football or other sports. Those sports get more than half their revenue from the tv contracts, they need fans to watch or else the ratings are smaller and so is tv money.
Racing just doesnt work that way. Racing depends on money bet on the races. What the hell good is it if we had 100 million new "fans" for that matter who didn't bet? Bottom line is that the days of most tracks beinga destination to go to are over. Home wagering is the future of the industry and the salvation of it as well. Why is football so popular with people to bet through off shore accounts or with the corner bookie? Simple!!! You call in or type in the bet. Order a pizza and grab soda or beer from the fridge and sit in your chair or on your couch and watch football all day long.
Racing needs to be in the living rooms of as many homes as it can be with acessible and easy home wagering companies that are user friendly. Yes going to Saratoga is special, and attending big race days is as well. But does anyone truly want to to go the track on a Wednesday or Thursday if given teh alternative to bet from the comfort of home while eating or drinking whatever you want at low costs as opposed to the 6 dollar beers and hot dogs at the track? No way.