John Shirreffs

[10 pnt move up]

Originally Posted by The Indomitable DrugS

You didn't.

In fact, you argued that Zenyatta deserves extra credit points because she's trained by an ordinary trainer like Shirreffs while RA is trained by a wizard like Asmussen.

I'd take Shirreffs in every single aspect over Asmussen as a trainer. Even ability to move horses up coming from a different barn.

I was making a joke about Asmussen and his often forays into the issues with drugs...you knew that though.

I do think its odd that a guy like Asmussen could have the horse of the year for three years in a row, and in the back of your head you wonder how much he may have "moved" the horses up, but both had talent so its his reputation that begs that question.

[The Indomitable DrugS]

Originally Posted by 10 pnt move up

I do think its odd that a guy like Asmussen could have the horse of the year for three years in a row, and in the back of your head you wonder how much he may have "moved" the horses up, but both had talent so its his reputation that begs that question.

Couldn't the same be said about Shirreffs with Life Is Sweet and After Market.

He moved both of them up considerably off of Bill Mott.

I'm not so sure RA and Curlin were really move-ups either.

[10 pnt move up]

Originally Posted by The Indomitable DrugS

Couldn't the same be said about Shirreffs with Life Is Sweet and After Market.

He moved both of them up considerably off of Bill Mott.

I'm not so sure RA and Curlin were really move-ups either.

I think both got better with the surface switch (Life is Sweet) and easier competition (After Market). Though I default to your opinion.

[NTamm1215]

Originally Posted by 10 pnt move up

I think both got better with the surface switch (Life is Sweet) and easier competition (After Market). Though I default to your opinion.

After Market got drilled in his final start for Mott, a N4X optional claimer at GP. I think he needed the ultra-firm turf out west as he didn't run back to his good 3YO races after a disastrous run in the Kent at Delaware.

NT

[The Indomitable DrugS]

Originally Posted by 10 pnt move up

I think both got better with the surface switch (Life is Sweet) and easier competition (After Market). Though I default to your opinion.

After Market finished dead last in a field of 8 in an alw race on the turf at Gulfstream in his final start for Bill Mott.

That was Jan 31st. Six months later .. he was the best in the West.

His pp's are right on top in this link...

http://www.drf.com/eclipse/2007/pps/maleturf.pdf


As for Life Is Sweet....

With Bill Mott: 2-for-7 .... zero for four in stakes races.

With John Shirreffs: 4-for-8 ... all races were either G1 or Gr 2 stakes. 3 of the 4 losses came to Zenyatta .. the other one came when 3rd to Rail Trip in the Hollywood Gold Cup.

As for the synthetic surface ... Life Is Sweet did run once on a synthetic track for Bill Mott .. she was 4th to Little Belle in the Ashland.

[10 pnt move up]

Originally Posted by The Indomitable DrugS

After Market finished dead last in a field of 8 in an alw race on the turf at Gulfstream in his final start for Bill Mott.

That was Jan 31st. Six months later .. he was the best in the West.

His pp's are right on top in this link...

http://www.drf.com/eclipse/2007/pps/maleturf.pdf


As for Life Is Sweet....

With Bill Mott: 2-for-7 .... zero for four in stakes races.

With John Shirreffs: 4-for-8 ... all races were either G1 or Gr 2 stakes. 3 of the 4 losses came to Zenyatta .. the other one came when 3rd to Rail Trip in the Hollywood Gold Cup.

As for the synthetic surface ... Life Is Sweet did run once on a synthetic track for Bill Mott .. she was 4th to Little Belle in the Ashland.

so you do think he is cheating then, and this is the proof?

[The Indomitable DrugS]

Originally Posted by 10 pnt move up

so you do think he is cheating then, and this is the proof?

I don't know what he's doing... but he's got an edge. As a trainer, you don't produce a profitable ROI over a 14 year span without an edge.

He's a guy that consistantly would get horses to win there debut by 10 lengths with triple digit figures when he had 505.

Now he's totally opposite - but still an awesome horse trainer.

We really are to a point though where trainers with poor stats never have a top horse. That's why I was such a rabid fan of Rachel Alexandra back when Hal Wiggins trained her. Look at his stats ... they are bad!! You damn sure know that guy is 100% clean.

I would be an RA Super Fan if she stayed with Wiggins and did the same thing she did with Asmussen. It's possible she might have ... who knows. Her final start with Wiggins was amazing.

[Rupert Pupkin]

Originally Posted by The Indomitable DrugS

I don't know what he's doing... but he's got an edge. As a trainer, you don't produce a profitable ROI over a 14 year span without an edge.

He's a guy that consistantly would get horses to win there debut by 10 lengths with triple digit figures when he had 505.

Now he's totally opposite - but still an awesome horse trainer.

We really are to a point though where trainers with poor stats never have a top horse. That's why I was such a rabid fan of Rachel Alexandra back when Hal Wiggins trained her. Look at his stats ... they are bad!! You damn sure know that guy is 100% clean.

I would be an RA Super Fan if she stayed with Wiggins and did the same thing she did with Asmussen. It's possible she might have ... who knows. Her final start with Wiggins was amazing.

I think a really high winning percentage is much more indicative of a trainer having an edge than a high ROI. We all know who some of the trainers with an edge are. Most of them have really high win percenatges, but not necessarily high ROIs.

From what I know of Shireffs, he is the last guy in the world that I would suspect of having an edge. He is one of the most honest trainers out there. Not only that, he has always used the most conservative veterinarians. The cheating trainers use the agressive and cheating vets, not the conservative vets.

[DaTruth]

Originally Posted by The Indomitable DrugS

We really are to a point though where trainers with poor stats never have a top horse. That's why I was such a rabid fan of Rachel Alexandra back when Hal Wiggins trained her. Look at his stats ... they are bad!! You damn sure know that guy is 100% clean.

Wiggins did have one very costly positive. Rapid Proof's connections lost $300,000 when he was disqualified from 1st in the 2005 Muniz when he tested positive for an anti-inflammatory steroid.

[JerseyJ]

Originally Posted by The Indomitable DrugS

After Market finished dead last in a field of 8 in an alw race on the turf at Gulfstream in his final start for Bill Mott.

That was Jan 31st. Six months later .. he was the best in the West.

His pp's are right on top in this link...

http://www.drf.com/eclipse/2007/pps/maleturf.pdf


As for Life Is Sweet....

With Bill Mott: 2-for-7 .... zero for four in stakes races.

With John Shirreffs: 4-for-8 ... all races were either G1 or Gr 2 stakes. 3 of the 4 losses came to Zenyatta .. the other one came when 3rd to Rail Trip in the Hollywood Gold Cup.

As for the synthetic surface ... Life Is Sweet did run once on a synthetic track for Bill Mott .. she was 4th to Little Belle in the Ashland.

Please, take a look at After Market's PPs for a second...After Market finished a non-threatening 6th at 28-1 in the Kilroe Handicap and then was a non-threatening 5th with a perfect trip in a conditional money allowance. Finally he got into the winners circle in a weak 5 horse rendition of the Inglewood Handicap. Then he continued to get great setup, after great setup before coming home east and losing the Kelso BC Mile...Did he really improve that much out West or did he just beat up on crap out there???

[The Indomitable DrugS]

The weak competition he saw in Southern Cal helped him out big time .. but still .. Shirreffs did very well with him.

[NTamm1215]

Originally Posted by JerseyJ

Please, take a look at After Market's PPs for a second...After Market finished a non-threatening 6th at 28-1 in the Kilroe Handicap and then was a non-threatening 5th with a perfect trip in a conditional money allowance. Finally he got into the winners circle in a weak 5 horse rendition of the Inglewood Handicap. Then he continued to get great setup, after great setup before coming home east and losing the Kelso BC Mile...Did he really improve that much out West or did he just beat up on crap out there???

He "slayed the dragon" as a noted racecaller who frequents this site said in the Charlie Whittingham then he ran really well in the Eddie Read and Del Mar Handicap while accumulating wins at distances ranging from 8.5 to 11 furlongs. His trip in the Kelso could have been better as he was extremely wide coming off the turn and still finished up pretty well even with the pace collapse.

It's not a redboard but I had a future on Courageous Cat this year thinking that he might have a great transcendental experience heading west like his bro After Market. That and I thought Dominguez rode him like s.hit in the Jamaica.

I was a tad excited at the top of the stretch but piped down when I saw Goldikova in high gear.

NT

[RockHardTen1985]

Originally Posted by NTamm1215

He "slayed the dragon" as a noted racecaller who frequents this site said in the Charlie Whittingham then he ran really well in the Eddie Read and Del Mar Handicap while accumulating wins at distances ranging from 8.5 to 11 furlongs. His trip in the Kelso could have been better as he was extremely wide coming off the turn and still finished up pretty well even with the pace collapse.

It's not a redboard but I had a future on Courageous Cat this year thinking that he might have a great transcendental experience heading west like his bro After Market. That and I thought Dominguez rode him like s.hit in the Jamaica.

I was a tad excited at the top of the stretch but piped down when I saw Goldikova in high gear.

NT

Lets be honest here Nick. You were a lot more then a tad excited. You thought you had it.

[Bigsmc]

Originally Posted by JerseyJ

Please, take a look at After Market's PPs for a second...After Market finished a non-threatening 6th at 28-1 in the Kilroe Handicap and then was a non-threatening 5th with a perfect trip in a conditional money allowance. Finally he got into the winners circle in a weak 5 horse rendition of the Inglewood Handicap. Then he continued to get great setup, after great setup before coming home east and losing the Kelso BC Mile...Did he really improve that much out West or did he just beat up on crap out there???

That Inglewood Day was a very good day for me.

I After Market after that day.

[RolloTomasi]

After Market had bleeding issues that was reportedly the basis for his transfer out west.

As far as Shireffs ability as a debut trainer, where are your patented stats?

I think you might just be recalling top class sprinters Swept Overboard and Hook And Ladder (maybe a little Lethal Instrument and High Wire Act?) and somehow amplifying the actual numbers...

[RolloTomasi]

Originally Posted by JerseyJ

Please, take a look at After Market's PPs for a second...After Market finished a non-threatening 6th at 28-1 in the Kilroe Handicap and then was a non-threatening 5th with a perfect trip in a conditional money allowance. Finally he got into the winners circle in a weak 5 horse rendition of the Inglewood Handicap. Then he continued to get great setup, after great setup before coming home east and losing the Kelso BC Mile...Did he really improve that much out West or did he just beat up on crap out there???

Well, to be fair, After Market was coming off a layoff or so in the Kilroe (not to mention he was about 40-1). I think those first couple of races were classic "prep" runs (with 4 or 5 wins under his belt in NY, he couldn't really start the season in soft spots).

For comparison, see Kotashaan's record off a long layoff in the fall of '02. He was UNP in an allowance, 4th in the San Gabriel at 20-1, before chasing Star Of Cozzene a couple of times and then going on a massive tear early in '03 that was only derailed by Luazur at Del Mar and Kent Desormeaux in Tokyo...

[RockHardTen1985]

Originally Posted by The Indomitable DrugS

After Market finished dead last in a field of 8 in an alw race on the turf at Gulfstream in his final start for Bill Mott.

That was Jan 31st. Six months later .. he was the best in the West.

His pp's are right on top in this link...

http://www.drf.com/eclipse/2007/pps/maleturf.pdf


As for Life Is Sweet....

With Bill Mott: 2-for-7 .... zero for four in stakes races.

With John Shirreffs: 4-for-8 ... all races were either G1 or Gr 2 stakes. 3 of the 4 losses came to Zenyatta .. the other one came when 3rd to Rail Trip in the Hollywood Gold Cup.

As for the synthetic surface ... Life Is Sweet did run once on a synthetic track for Bill Mott .. she was 4th to Little Belle in the Ashland.

What happened to Crossing The Line?

[10 pnt move up]

Originally Posted by The Indomitable DrugS

I'm not so sure RA and Curlin were really move-ups either.

I never said they were, I said due to his numerous shady drug issues you never know.