Oh yeah, I had forgot about the timing thing. That too is a good pt. I really should have mentioned that. The timing alone probably accounts for a good bit of time loss up till the 1930s when they finally got the starting gates in most places. yeah, lose a lot of time that way for sure.

The banked tracks and the aluminum shoes come in around 1950 I guess.

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I would have to research more on the prestige value of the Derby although I am not sure that really has much to do with the argument about MoW. It is well known that Mr. Riddle didnt think 3 yr olds should go 10f in May so that is why he did not run.

It is also the reason that he did not carry 150# as a four year old. He thought that was not a good idea. History seems to validate him, as we dont see that much weight here at least no in north america.

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I dont find too many "bad horses" winning the derby in 20s and 30s although there are always going to be underdogs that win it.

Behave YOurself, 1921 and Brokers Tip 1933 are about the only two I can figure as mediocrities to win it then. Morvich was underdog but he went on a tear right after winning this and so he must have been peaking. CLyde van Dusen and flying Ebony were not much but they won as mudders, so I guess it had to do with an off track on those days.


Prolly someone in the 22nd century is going to pt. to Giacomo in 2005 as some sort of proof that the derby wasnt up to snuff or something. It happens. Most of the time when the good horses didnt make the derby back then it was because of injury, going from memory here.

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One thing that I notice in terms of trends is the field size of the derby and this has accounted for something of an increase in closers winning it in the last 30 years. THe track certainly plays well to closers in modern times, but looking at the 40s and 50s, I dont think they are doing nearly so well. Most likely this has to do with field size. There is no reason to go 5 wide when the field is only 7 or 8 horses.

For instance Citation would probably have won it as a closer nowadays but in 1948 he stayed about 5 or 6 lengths back of Coaltown in what was essentially a two horse race. No reason to let a horse like that get out in front by a lot, Coaltown could finish. But say nowadays with at least 3 or 4 cheap speed horses, out there, he could probably stay further back and win in true closer fashion.

There were still some great closers that won it in 40s and 50s, Ponder, Whirlaway, Needles, but now we are getting like 1/2 or more of the derbies won by closers.