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Kasept 01-09-2022 02:11 PM

2021 Eclipse Award Ballot & Discussion
 
My 2021 Eclipse Ballot

Horse of the Year: 1st - Knicks Go, 2nd - Letruska, 3rd - Essential Quality

Two-Year-Old Male: 1st - Corniche, 2nd - Pappacap, 3rd - Jack Christopher, Modern Games-Ire
Two-Year-Old Filly: 1st - Echo Zulu, 2nd - Twilight Gleaming, 3rd - Juju's Map, Pizza Bianca

Three-Year-Old Male: : 1st - Essential Quality, 2nd - Life Is Good, 3rd - Hot Rod Charlie, Medina Spirit
Three-Year-Old Filly: 1st - Malathaat, 2nd - Search Results, 3rd - Clairiere, Santa Barbara-Ire

Older Dirt Male: 1st - Knicks Go, 2nd - Maxfield, 3rd - Silver State, Mystic Guide
Older Dirt Female: 1st - Letruska, 2nd - Shedaresthedevil, 3rd - Marche Lorraine

Male Sprinter: 1st - Jackie's Warrior, 2nd - Aloha West, 3rd - Golden Pal, Flightline
Female Sprinter: 1st - Ce Ce, 2nd - Gamine, 3rd - Bell's the One, Santa Barbara

Male Turf Horse: 1st - Yibir, 2nd - Space Blues, 3rd - Smooth Like Strait, Domestic Spending
Female Turf Horse: 1st - War Like Goddess , 2nd - Loves Only You, 3rd - Shantisara, Santa Barbara

Steeplechase Horse: 1st - The Mean Queen, 2nd - Snap Decision, 3rd - Down Royal, Baltimore Bucko

Owner: 1st - Godolphin, 2nd - Klaravich Stables, 3rd - Juddmonte
Breeder: 1st - Godolphin, 2nd - Stonestreet, 3rd - Calumet Farm

Jockey: 1st - Joel Rosario, 2nd - Luis Saez, 3rd - Flavien Prat, Irad Ortiz, Jr.
Apprentice Jockey: 1st - Jessica Pyfer, 2nd - John Hiraldo, 3rd - Charlie Marquez

Trainer: 1st - Brad Cox, 2nd - Steve Asmussen, 3rd - Michael W. McCarthy, Chad Brown

Kasept 01-09-2022 02:13 PM

2021 PP's & Statistics

Eclipse candidates past performances (Updated December 29)

Statistics

Horses
Jockeys
Trainers
Owners
Breeders
Apprentice Jockeys
2021 Grade 1 Stakes Winners

blackthroatedwind 01-09-2022 09:27 PM

Serious question.....who is Pappacap?

blackthroatedwind 01-09-2022 09:29 PM

Wait....you don't have Domestic Spending 1-2-3? Did you fall and hit your head?

RolloTomasi 01-09-2022 09:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind (Post 1160615)
Serious question.....who is Pappacap?

Come on...that is easily the best named horse of 2021.

Can't wait for him to be a sire (and there's a good chance it will only be 6-10 months from now).

Kasept 01-10-2022 05:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind (Post 1160616)
Wait....you don't have Domestic Spending 1-2-3? Did you fall and hit your head?

Was honestly a terrible division for these purposes. As I explain yearly, the top tab is the only one that matters. Would have put him first with win at Arlington because I'm hardly bowled over by Yibir. Then flip-flopped between Domestic Spending & Space Blues for 2nd. Was going to have Smooth Like Strait 3rd no matter what as an acknowledgement of his complete, high quality campaign.

Kasept 01-10-2022 05:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind (Post 1160615)
Serious question.....who is Pappacap?


blackthroatedwind 01-10-2022 09:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kasept (Post 1160621)
Was honestly a terrible division for these purposes. As I explain yearly, the top tab is the only one that matters. Would have put him first with win at Arlington because I'm hardly bowled over by Yibir. Then flip-flopped between Domestic Spending & Space Blues for 2nd. Was going to have Smooth Like Strait 3rd no matter what as an acknowledgement of his complete, high quality campaign.

A "complete, high quality campaign" where he mostly lost. Let's be honest, you are showing favoritism towards Michael McCarthy. I have the greatest respect for him as well, but it's hard to place him third for top trainer, and you should own it.

blackthroatedwind 01-10-2022 09:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kasept (Post 1160622)

Now I know why I didn't know who he was.

Kasept 01-10-2022 11:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind (Post 1160626)
A "complete, high quality campaign" where he mostly lost. Let's be honest, you are showing favoritism towards Michael McCarthy. I have the greatest respect for him as well, but it's hard to place him third for top trainer, and you should own it.

That's a curious critique from the voice that rightly advises players to not be overly results-oriented. I frequently use the 3rd place slot to show appreciation for candidates that won't have the numbers of perennial finalists Brown, Asmussen, Cox, Pletcher & Baffert. McCarthy became apparent to me as worth a nod when I realized he'd landed Ce Ce and Smooth Like Strait on my ballot. I own it happily. And isn't the whole exercise about merit-based favoritism?

blackthroatedwind 01-10-2022 01:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kasept (Post 1160628)
That's a curious critique from the voice that rightly advises players to not be overly results-oriented. I frequently use the 3rd place slot to show appreciation for candidates that won't have the numbers of perennial finalists Brown, Asmussen, Cox, Pletcher & Baffert. McCarthy became apparent to me as worth a nod when I realized he'd landed Ce Ce and Smooth Like Strait on my ballot. I own it happily. And isn't the whole exercise about merit-based favoritism?

There is a giant difference between handicapping and deciding awards. Maybe you should have Hot Rod Charlie ahead of Essential Quality because he ran a better race in the Belmont. Was Life as Good deserving of top Sprinter over Jackie's Warrior? He ran a better race in the Allen Jerkens. Smooth Like Strait, he was far and away my biggest bet BC weekend, had an absolute dream setup in the BC Mile....and still lost, yet somehow you have him third best turf horse, over a multiple Grade 1 winner, who ran a huge race to dead heat in the Turf Classic on Derby Day, despite an impossible trip, crushed in the Manhattan in arguably the single best performance all year in that division, and then almost overcame absurd conditions at Arlington. Apparently none of that matters when you can reward Smooth Like Strait, a very nice horse with not a great deal of overall accomplishments in 2021. Don't compare this to being result oriented, because in Domestic Spending's case, you have a clearly superior horse with more actual accomplishments.

knickslions2 01-10-2022 02:24 PM

I’m not a big awards guy in any sport so really don’t weigh in much on this. However Domestic Spending is a nice horse but a horse only running 3 races in a whole year should not be on any ballot.

blackthroatedwind 01-10-2022 03:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by knickslions2 (Post 1160631)
I’m not a big awards guy in any sport so really don’t weigh in much on this. However Domestic Spending is a nice horse but a horse only running 3 races in a whole year should not be on any ballot.

So Yibir is out too I guess.

blackthroatedwind 01-10-2022 03:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kasept (Post 1160628)
That's a curious critique from the voice that rightly advises players to not be overly results-oriented. I frequently use the 3rd place slot to show appreciation for candidates that won't have the numbers of perennial finalists Brown, Asmussen, Cox, Pletcher & Baffert. McCarthy became apparent to me as worth a nod when I realized he'd landed Ce Ce and Smooth Like Strait on my ballot. I own it happily. And isn't the whole exercise about merit-based favoritism?

Here's something else....honestly, which performance was more impressive....Space Blues in the Mile or Domestic in EITHER the Turf Classic or Manhattan?

It's hard to argue against this year's Mile being historically weak AND the first two had dream trips. Steve, two of your top three in the division didn't even run the best race in the BC ( that would be Ivar since you seem to have forgotten ). Suddenly, I guess, you're being result oriented.

knickslions2 01-10-2022 03:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind (Post 1160632)
So Yibir is out too I guess.

I don’t who should be there but at least the horse ran 8 times even though it was not all in US. To use basketball reference Jordan should have been mvp every year but if he only played half a season I wouldn’t vote for him. 3 races doesn’t deserve any award in my opinion.

Dahoss 01-10-2022 07:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by knickslions2 (Post 1160635)
I don’t who should be there but at least the horse ran 8 times even though it was not all in US. To use basketball reference Jordan should have been mvp every year but if he only played half a season I wouldn’t vote for him. 3 races doesn’t deserve any award in my opinion.

If this were 20 years ago I’d agree with you. Abbreviated campaigns are a reality.

Where is your sweet spot on number of starts? Is 4 award worthy?

I haven’t put a whole lot of thought into it, but looking at what each of the finalists accomplished, Domestic Spending’s resume is as good as any in that division. He didn’t show up often, but he made it count when he did.

cakes44 01-10-2022 07:39 PM

So if Domestic Spending is definitely top 3, shouldn’t Colonel Liam be discussed?

Dahoss 01-10-2022 07:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cakes44 (Post 1160648)
So if Domestic Spending is definitely top 3, shouldn’t Colonel Liam be discussed?

No

blackthroatedwind 01-10-2022 08:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cakes44 (Post 1160648)
So if Domestic Spending is definitely top 3, shouldn’t Colonel Liam be discussed?

If you definitely believe Domestic is number one, you might make an argument for Colonel Liam. I'm not one, as he was outrageously lucky when he dead heated Domestic and got drowned in the Manhattan when they both got fair trips. The Pegasus Turf has always been a dubious Grade 1. It's the Gulfstream Park Turf, which was always a questionable Grade 1, and beating Largent in a photo wasn't overly impressive. Having said that, however, he does have some credentials.

I get the Yibir support. I'm not a huge fan, but he's not a terrible choice. Space Blues? No thanks. Perfect trip in a dreadful BC Mile and it's not like he had a wildly impressive European campaign ( though better than Yibir did ). It's a flawed division, to say the least, and even Domestic is a shaky champion. It is fair to point out that he only ran three times, but I just think he did more in those three races than any others. How is Yibir winning an uncompetitive ungraded race at Belmont against overmatched horses good enough to make his BC win, against one good Euro who was essentially eased, more impressive than Domestic's three races? To me, it isn't...but I can't argue too strongly against it.

Taking a stand for Smooth Like Strait is indefensible in my opinion.

King Glorious 01-10-2022 11:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by knickslions2 (Post 1160635)
I don’t who should be there but at least the horse ran 8 times even though it was not all in US. To use basketball reference Jordan should have been mvp every year but if he only played half a season I wouldn’t vote for him. 3 races doesn’t deserve any award in my opinion.

I can understand this position but it goes against history. Many horses have been named champions off of only one race in this country. Many people forget that not only was Arazi named 2yo champion but he was also one of the three finalists for HOY in 1991 and that was with only one race in this country. People forget that Singspiel was voted champion turf horse in 1996 and never won a race in the United States. So with history to look back on, rewarding horses that only run here once is ok. I’ve always believed that the awards should come with more qualifying criteria, chief among them being number of starts in this country. But until that day comes, the ballots say that in order to be qualified, you only need one start in North America (unless it’s been changed and I’m unaware), and it makes it so subjective. Is it the “best” horse? Is it the most accomplished horse? Is it the horse that had the best and most complete season?

knickslions2 01-11-2022 07:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by King Glorious (Post 1160653)
I can understand this position but it goes against history. Many horses have been named champions off of only one race in this country. Many people forget that not only was Arazi named 2yo champion but he was also one of the three finalists for HOY in 1991 and that was with only one race in this country. People forget that Singspiel was voted champion turf horse in 1996 and never won a race in the United States. So with history to look back on, rewarding horses that only run here once is ok. I’ve always believed that the awards should come with more qualifying criteria, chief among them being number of starts in this country. But until that day comes, the ballots say that in order to be qualified, you only need one start in North America (unless it’s been changed and I’m unaware), and it makes it so subjective. Is it the “best” horse? Is it the most accomplished horse? Is it the horse that had the best and most complete season?

All I know is I wouldn’t vote for a horse that only ran 3 times in a year only wining twice. I dont have a vote so it doesn’t matter.

Dahoss 01-11-2022 09:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by knickslions2 (Post 1160654)
All I know is I wouldn’t vote for a horse that only ran 3 times in a year only wining twice. I dont have a vote so it doesn’t matter.

None of it matters but it’s a fun discussion. We used to have lots of discussions here.

You’ve said 3 starts is too few…had Domestic Spending not gotten injured and ran in the Breeders Cup and ran a troubled 2nd would that have been enough? Just trying to figure out how many starts is enough.

RolloTomasi 01-11-2022 11:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dahoss (Post 1160655)
You’ve said 3 starts is too few…had Domestic Spending not gotten injured and ran in the Breeders Cup and ran a troubled 2nd would that have been enough? Just trying to figure out how many starts is enough.

Ignoring number of 2021 starts, it seems reasonable to expect Domestic Spending, Colonel Liam, and Yibir as the 3 finalists (with United as an alternate, though CA no longer has any turf Grade 1s beyond a mile).

But with a minimum starts criteria the finalists should be:

Rockemperor, Gufo, and Two Emmys. Those 3 just beating out Japan and any English Channel horse of your choosing (Channel Maker, Bizzee Channel, or Spooky Channel).

Arklow would have made the cut if he had just one more also-ran performance...

FATPIANO 01-11-2022 11:50 AM

I can never forget Easy Goer/Sunday Silence 3yr old campaign. IMHO Easy Goer had the better body of work (just like EQ.) But SS beat EG more times. (just like Medina Spirit beat EQ, both times they raced against each other). And SS was voted champion. I would crown Medina Spirit Champion 3yr old.

freddymo 01-11-2022 11:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FATPIANO (Post 1160657)
I can never forget Easy Goer/Sunday Silence 3yr old campaign. IMHO Easy Goer had the better body of work (just like EQ.) But SS beat EG more times. (just like Medina Spirit beat EQ, both times they raced against each other). And SS was voted champion. I would crown Medina Spirit Champion 3yr old.

Good point Whittingham was a notorious juicer. lol

knickslions2 01-11-2022 11:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dahoss (Post 1160655)
None of it matters but it’s a fun discussion. We used to have lots of discussions here.

You’ve said 3 starts is too few…had Domestic Spending not gotten injured and ran in the Breeders Cup and ran a troubled 2nd would that have been enough? Just trying to figure out how many starts is enough.

Good question. I would like to have seen 4 or 5 total. Its hard to judge. I know horses dont run like the used to but to me 3 races with 1 win, 1 tie and a 2nd doesnt seem like the horse should win the award. Say 4 races with 3 wins and another solid showing or 5 races with three wins and I would feel better. I think the horse is really good but not deserving of an eclipse.

Dahoss 01-13-2022 12:11 PM

I just looked at Ed Derosa’s eclipse ballot.

Didn’t think it was possible to think he was more of a clown than I already did…but he proved me wrong!

blackthroatedwind 01-13-2022 01:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dahoss (Post 1160677)
I just looked at Ed Derosa’s eclipse ballot.

Didn’t think it was possible to think he was more of a clown than I already did…but he proved me wrong!

While mostly Ed just likes to get attention, other than Loves Only You, and the irresponsible abstaining, was he way off anywhere? Did he have Smooth Like Strait in his top three?

Dahoss 01-13-2022 01:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind (Post 1160679)
While mostly Ed just likes to get attention, other than Loves Only You, and the irresponsible abstaining, was he way off anywhere? Did he have Smooth Like Strait in his top three?

No Jackie's Warrior?

blackthroatedwind 01-13-2022 02:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dahoss (Post 1160680)
No Jackie's Warrior?

Oh, yeah, I forgot that. That was indefensible. He's just looking for attention. Whatever.

Kasept 01-15-2022 11:57 AM

2yo Male: Corniche (Baffert), Jack Christopher (C. Brown), Modern Games-Ire (Appleby)
2yo Filly: Echo Zulu (Asmussen), Juju's Map (Cox), Pizza Bianca (Pletcher)

3yo Male: Essential Quality (Cox), Life Is Good (Pletcher), Medina Spirit (Baffert)
3yo Filly: Clairiere (Asmussen), Malathaat (Pletcher), Santa Barbara-Ire (A. O'Brien)

Older Dirt Male: Knicks Go (Cox), Maxfield (Walsh), Mystic Guide (Stidham)
Older Dirt Female: Letruska (Gutierrez), Marche Lorraine-Jpn (Yahagi), Shedaresthedevil (Cox)

Male Sprinter: Aloha West (Catalano), Flightline (Sadler), Jackie's Warrior (Asmussen)
Female Sprinter: Bella Sofia (Rodriguez), Ce Ce (McCarthy), Gamine (Baffert)

Male Turf Horse: Domestic Spending-GB (C. Brown), Space Blues-Ire (Appleby), Yibir-GB (Appleby)
Female Turf Horse: Loves Only You-Jpn (Yahagi), Santa Barbara-Ire (A. O'Brien), War Like Goddess (Mott)

Steeplechase: Baltimore Bucko-GB (Brion), Snap Decision (Fisher), The Mean Queen-Ire (Brion)

Owner: Godolphin LLC, Juddmonte Farms Inc., Klaravich Stables Inc.
Breeder: Calumet Farm, Godolphin LLC, Stonestreet Thoroughbred Holdings LLC

Jockey: Irad Ortiz, Jr., Flavien Prat, Joel Rosario
Apprentice Jockey: John Hiraldo, Charlie Marquez, Jessica Pyfer

Trainer: Steve Asmussen, Chad Brown, Brad Cox

Kasept 02-11-2022 05:20 AM

My 2021 Eclipse Ballot

Horse of the Year: 1st - Knicks Go, 2nd - Letruska, 3rd - Essential Quality

Two-Year-Old Male: 1st - Corniche, 2nd - Pappacap, 3rd - Jack Christopher, Modern Games-Ire
Two-Year-Old Filly: 1st - Echo Zulu, 2nd - Twilight Gleaming, 3rd - Juju's Map, Pizza Bianca

Three-Year-Old Male: : 1st - Essential Quality, 2nd - Life Is Good, 3rd - Hot Rod Charlie, Medina Spirit
Three-Year-Old Filly: 1st - Malathaat, 2nd - Search Results, 3rd - Clairiere, Santa Barbara-Ire

Older Dirt Male: 1st - Knicks Go, 2nd - Maxfield, 3rd - Silver State, Mystic Guide
Older Dirt Female: 1st - Letruska, 2nd - Shedaresthedevil, 3rd - Marche Lorraine

Male Sprinter: 1st - Jackie's Warrior, 2nd - Aloha West, 3rd - Golden Pal, Flightline
Female Sprinter: 1st - Ce Ce, 2nd - Gamine, 3rd - Bell's the One, Santa Barbara

Male Turf Horse: 1st - Yibir, 2nd - Space Blues, 3rd - Smooth Like Strait, Domestic Spending
Female Turf Horse: 1st - War Like Goddess , 2nd - Loves Only You, 3rd - Shantisara, Santa Barbara

Steeplechase Horse: 1st - The Mean Queen, 2nd - Snap Decision, 3rd - Down Royal, Baltimore Bucko

Owner: 1st - Godolphin, 2nd - Klaravich Stables, 3rd - Juddmonte
Breeder: 1st - Godolphin, 2nd - Stonestreet, 3rd - Calumet Farm

Jockey: 1st - Joel Rosario, 2nd - Luis Saez, 3rd - Flavien Prat, Irad Ortiz, Jr.
Apprentice Jockey: 1st - Jessica Pyfer, 2nd - John Hiraldo, 3rd - Charlie Marquez

Trainer: 1st - Brad Cox, 2nd - Steve Asmussen, 3rd - Michael W. McCarthy, Chad Brown


The First Place Voting

Horse of the Year (Name, First-Place Votes)– Knicks Go, 228; Letruska, 2; Loves Only You (JPN), 2; Essential Quality, 1; Lil Latigo, 1; Medina Spirit, 1.

Two-Year-Old Male – Corniche, 214; Jack Christopher, 12; Modern Games (IRE), 2; Tiz the Bomb, 2; Frosty Storm, 1; Gunite, 1; Voter Abstentions, 3.
Two-Year-Old Filly – Echo Zulu, 233; Baytown Valleygirl, 1; Twilight Gleaming (IRE), 1.

Three-Year-Old Male – Essential Quality, 131; Medina Spirit, 84; Life Is Good, 18; Hurricane Nation, 1; Hot Rod Charlie, 1.
Three-Year-Old Filly – Malathaat, 227; Going Global (IRE), 3; Shantisara (IRE), 2, Bella Sofia, 1; Eida's Storm, 1; Santa Barbara (IRE), 1.

Older Dirt Male – Knicks Go, 232; Maxfield, 2; Lil Latigo, 1.
Older Dirt Female – Letruska, 221; Marche Lorraine (JPN), 11; Damisela, 1; Gamine, 1; Monomoy Girl, 1.

Male Sprinter – Jackie's Warrior, 110; Aloha West, 50; Flightline, 33; Golden Pal, 19; Dr. Schivel, 18; Extravagant Kid, 1; Life Is Good, 1; Voter Abstentions, 3.
Female Sprinter – Ce Ce, 136; Gamine, 97; Bella Sofia, 1; Voter Abstention, 1.

Male Turf Horse – Yibir (GB), 135; Domestic Spending (GB), 33; Space Blues (IRE), 33; Golden Pal, 14; Colonel Liam; 11; Smooth Like Strait, 6; Town Cruise, 1; Voter Abstentions, 2.
Female Turf Horse – Loves Only You (JPN), 136; War Like Goddess, 70; Santa Barbara (IRE), 10; Going Global (IRE) 6; Althiqa (GB), 5; Shantisara (IRE), 2; Con Lima, 1; My Sister Nat (FR), 1; Regal Glory, 1; Voter Abstentions, 3.

Steeplechase Horse – The Mean Queen (IRE), 210; Snap Decision, 2; Voter Abstentions, 23.

Owner – Godolphin LLC, 216; Klaravich Stables LLC, 7; End Zone Athletics Inc, 2; Korea Racing Authority, 2; Gary Barber, 1; Calumet Farm, 1; LNJ Foxwoods, 1; St. George Stable LLC, 1; Voter Abstentions, 4.
Breeder – Godolphin LLC, 205; Calumet Farm, 8; Angie Moore, 7; Stonestreet Thoroughbred Holdings LLC, 6; Gail Rice, 3; Nick Alexander, 1; Fred W. Hertrich III and John Fielding, 1; Spendthrift Farm LLC, 1; Voter Abstentions, 3.

Jockey – Joel Rosario, 213; Irad Ortiz Jr., 17; Paco Lopez, 1; Flavien Prat, 1; Luis Saez, 1; Voter Abstentions, 2.
Apprentice Jockey – Jessica Pyfer, 156; John Hiraldo, 46; Charlie Marquez, 12; Voter Abstentions, 21.

Trainer – Brad Cox, 189; Steve Asmussen, 33; Charlie Appleby, 3; Bob Baffert, 2; Chad Brown, 2; Karl Broberg, 1; Michael McCarthy, 1; Todd Pletcher, 1. Voter Abstentions, 3.


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