Past Posting Proven once again.....perhaps 49 combinations of one race!!
 

In an effort to improve the monitoring of mutuels some states are considering using an independent oversight body responsible for monitoring such issues as the frequency of past posting events which apparently have been documented far more frequently than previously advertised by racing media elsewhere. RCI Integrity Systems went public with some recent findings in Bloodhorse.com that will potentially change the concept of security at the window.

A portion of the story and link below......

A study of a days racing showed little to worry about in the first two races but then....


"Cancellations of wagers didn’t occur on the first two races, but on the third race, there was a series of cancellations after the race went off, Oelschlager said, one at three seconds and another at five seconds. The tickets were purchased 3½ minutes before the race, and all 49 combinations of bets used the number seven horse."

http://news.bloodhorse.com//viewstory.asp?id=44236

Let the games begin.......Chuck can I write you a little more BP medicine?

"One at :03 seconds and one at :05 seconds.."

The final 'force' of odds occurs :10 seconds after the gate opens which gathers the last 1% of tote action... So there could be a window there that needs to be closed off on certain systems. The call for independent monitoring is a good idea. As mentioned several times. he Wagering Protocol Working Group has made tremendous strides on this area in a short period of time. While it's hardly the biggest problem out there, it certainly needs the attention of all involved and as Maloney has suggested should be totally repairable in as advanced a technological age as we're in...

3 seconds into the race?

Have the cancels loaded, watch the break, send or don't send. 3 to 5 seconds is more than enough time to see if my horse broke well or not.

even if its only a 3-5 second window there are people that will find ways to exploit it. cmorioles is right, it gives you the benefit of knowing your horse got a clean break. they need to follow-up on things like that and make sure everything is tightened up.

In this day in age, you would think these morons can equate the gates opening with closing pools, with a simple sensor. It is very simple from a logisitic side. What they should do is very very simple.

Put sensors on all the gates, and when ALL of those sensors are opened, wagering closes, and what you do is give one of the morons in the stewards booth a switch and tell him to click that button once the gates open.

And lets say one of the horses pops open the gate by accident, well that wouldn't close the pools becuase ALL of them would have to open. Simple f'n technology.

Problem with this industry is that there is a bunch of old goats running it, and a bunch of younger tech savy people wanting to get into it, but the goats fear change. Just bad bad business models.

Especially if I am dropping several thousand on a race like the whale from FG.
To bad we can't find out what race and when this security system is talking about so we can see whether it is a pool the size of Charles Town on a Sunday or CD on a Saturday. They do ONE sample test and this is what they find. The chances of hitting a positive sample with one trial implies a very prevalent event!!! Scary stuff and yes this board has exhausted the subject previously but what if this happened on a BC or Derby day. I think Bloodhorse has an obligation to provide more info if they are going to print that. This is like walking into a movie theatre and screaming fire because you see a trash can being put out in the lobby the hysteria to the sold out movie just reacts to the alarm they have no idea the danger is under control

Who is doing the canceling and why isnt that person being brought up on charges of some sort?

But wouldnt you actually have access to the pools through a tote machine to cancel that quickly ?

It just seems implausable that this isnt against some law of some sort? It is one thing if I walk up and am making bets and the pools dont close exactly on time because some kind of systems error (Not that that is acceptable) but to actually cancel wagers after the race has taken place with full intent to do so (which you would have to have in order to have the tickets ready to cancel) seems criminal.

And you know what I am saying. If there is someone with knowledge that the pools will stay open long enough to cancel bets there has to be some kind of violation of some law, no?

For there to be a violation of law, there has to be malicious intent, and that might be tough to prove in this case.

Thanks Atticus Finch.

I'm not sure why you think that? If someone is knowingly manipulating the pools either before or after the race has gone off there should be a criminal investigation. Do you not have the same opinion?

That is my whole point! The player cant do this without inside help which surely has to be against the law in some fashion.

Sorry for making a relevant point that no one had considered and which would explain why prosecuting people who cancel after the bell is a practical impossibility.

I find it hard to believe that manipulation of betting pools is legal regardless of your legal expertise

Any canceling should be ended when the bell goes off, and likely even before. Allowing this is just plain silly.

We aren't talking about manipulation of pools. We're talking about cancelling tickets after the race has started, which appears to be allowed because of a glitch in the system. Yes, the cancelling of tickets happens to manipulate pools, but unless it is provable that a person intended to manipulate a pool (which may not even be a crime-I'm not sure), it would be nearly impossible to charge someone with a crime.

Don't apologize.

If you in fact are a lawyer or law enforcement, I apologize for my flippant comment and await your next opinion regarding this matter with bated breath.

Growing up, there was always a 5 second delay (to cancel a ticket) after the start of a race that I believe was in place to leave tellers time to cancel any mistakes so they wouldn't have to eat the bet.

The situation was if you had a sprawling 3 room OTB on a weekday night when no one was there, you got Charlestown on the big screen in the empty room, and if your horse didn't break well in the 4.5 furlong dash, you cancel your bet and wait for the next one.

They did away with it about five years or so ago I believe. I certainly don't know of any betters or tellers or betting tellers who've done it since.

Huh? If cancelling a ticket is pool manipulation then how hard would it be to prove intent? "I pushed the button by mistake" defense? Wouldnt fraud be a possible crime?

Would any money actually be lost by closing wagering as soon as the first horse is loaded into the gate? Once everyone was used to it wouldn't they just place their bets 30 seconds early and handle would be just the same? Sure you'd have people not getting their bets in on time and blaming the new system but in reality those would be the same people that wind up not getting their bets in on time as it is. And if you are 5 seconds late closing the pools sometime then they would still be loading horses when the pool closes so you wouldn't gain a significant advantage.

But cancelling a ticket is legal. Even if there was a law that said cancelling a ticket after the race started was illegal, you would still have to prove the bettor intended to break the law and knew the race had started. The bettor could always say "Hey, I made the wrong bet, told the clerk, and he cancelled it. I didn't know the race had started." Now, if cancelling a ticket after the race started required some extensive computer work like hacking some computer program, that's another story.

And there's always the possibility that the bettor is an idiot and decides to tell a bunch of people what he and the mutuel clerk are doing.

why if cancelled the bettor has seen his horse or horses have no change of ticket coming in. some law against that.

I'd be very surprised if these cancellations aren't part of a dirty scheme between the tracks and big bettors. As has been said many times before when this topic has come up, it seems that this day and age they should be able to come up with a system to shut down all betting the exact second that gate opens. Until then, we can argue all we want about this but it's not going to change a single thing. If it bothers people so much, then don't wager.

So then you're going to have to have some set standard as to when a horse is deemed to have "no chance" after the start. Does anyone really think we are going to see a law that says "when a confirmed front runner breaks slower than usual, he is herby deemed to have no chance. And any tickets using this horse that are cancelled after the start of the race, intentionally or unintentionally, can be used as proof of illegal activity"?

Prosecuting people for cancelling tickets at any time is impossible unless there is some other overt act, such as hacking into a computer or pushing a button that keep the pools open longer than allowed by law.

Yes.

Sure it does Hossy, but come on we are the little people. I wish I had inside information on stocks, I wish I Knew every judge in every county to get me out of a ticket. Do I want an $11 payout on a win ticket as opposed to $10?
No doubt, but the question lies in the fact is there anything you and I can do about it?? Likely not. I don't want the answer to be shutting down betting a minute before post.

You are giving the tracks way too much credit. Very few if any are clever enough to take care of big bettors in a legal fashion, let alone a possibly illegal one.

According to what we are hearing, at least publically, they would have no idea if this was happening anyway.

Which isnt the answer if people are gaining access to the pools anyway.