Traditions? If tradition was important, all the horses wouldn't be getting Lasix now, would they? Surely we can get better than "tradition" and "they don't stick too good". Use both? Why, if both do the same thing, would you pay double? These answers are as lame as the statements from the pro ban side, maybe lamer.

Give me 3 valid, truthful, proven reasons to eliminate furosemide on race day.

1) You can get the same help from a nasal strip.
2) Many horses don't need it.
3) It enhances performance. You may not like the proof, but I have given plenty, and it is legitimate. I'm sure you haven't bothered to check any of it out, but that doesn't make it less true.

Now, why again is 1) not enough besides silly answers like "it is tradition to drug horses" and "those darn nasal strips fall off"?

Please don't avoid the question again, just say I don't know or I give up if you can't answer with something that a kindergartner would laugh off.

Nasal strips and lasix work in entirely different ways. Why do you think one is better than the other?

What percentage of horses don't need lasix?

Nope. Haven't read any furosemide research at all ... :D

Do tell me - how does lasix specifically enhance performance? What does it actually do to horses?

What difference does it make how they work, as long as they do? Surely if the results are similar any sane person would choose the strip over an injection, unless of course there are other reasons they don't want to discuss.

I would say less than 50% of horses actually need Lasix. Can it be proven these days, probably not, but I've been following the game a long, long time, certainly before it was legal and then later abused.

I have no idea how it enhances performance, but you can't deny the results. Well, you can, but an unbiased person wouldn't.

Again, no answer. I rest my case.

While you are resting, you might want to start at the beginning of the thread and read it.

Maybe after you answer. Obviously you can't and stick to your argument, so you won't.

It seems you've lost track of what's going on here. You were asked to give reasons why lasix shouldn't be used, and you gave three. And now I'm asking you to defend your reasons. Can you do that?

I answered your question about why lasix and not FLAIR strips in post 273, the third and fourth paragraph. Please re-read that.

You have quoted back paragraphs one and two to me, dismissing them as reasons, although those were not given by me as reasons, they were only comments. My reasons are in the third and fourth paragraphs. So please don't say I haven't answered, when I clearly have.

I know you did, and those answers smell to high heaven. None of that matters if the effect is the same, and you already admitted it was. Since you are never going to answer, I'll end this now. It was fun while it lasted, but you are truly no different than the anti-Lasix zealots. You completely ignore everything I ask because it doesn't fit your agenda.

I'll let Rollo commence with his beat down in the Havre de Grace thread. He is much smarter than me.

I answered your question about why lasix and not FLAIR strips in post 273, the third and fourth paragraph. Please re-read that.

You kinda did, but not really.

I already addressed those answers. Reading is fundamental. I asked questions about your responses, and typically, they were ignored.

Dude they dont stick very well which means they dont necessarily work very effectively. At Lasixpalooza some research vet from Michigan state who is the foremost researcher into EIPH said that the most effective way to treat it is a combo of lasix and nasal strips. So I figured that i would try to get something out of those wasted 8 hours soooo.....I tried the nasal strip/lasix combination on a horse I had that was a pretty bad bleeder (I bought him for a ham sandwich because he was a pretty good hunter prospect and wanted to see if we could get the bleeding under control before reselling him). Of course the nasal strip fell half off (it was hot and humid), the horse bled after running pretty well and off to the pretty horsey people he went.

The point is that this is hardly an exact science, and for someone who supposedly doesnt care one way or another you make statements that kinda show you do seem to care. If it makes you happy I will admit for all trainers that we only use lasix because it makes our horses run faster, that bleeding is entirely overblown and the other 1000 or so things that are given to horses that everyone ignores have absolutely no effect on performance.

Anything to end this thread and the hundred emails it sends to my yahoo account...

:D Naw. You've spent the thread completely ignoring anything you didn't like hearing, dismissing opinions you don't like out of hand. And that's been pointed out by more than one poster here.

You might try re-reading the thread from the start. You might learn the answers to your questions, which were discussed in more depth pages ago.

Just playing devil's advocate. When the strips were popular, I don't remember seeing a bunch flopping in the wind, do you? Surely they could improve that part of it if the problem was bad.

Why aren't the "other things" caught or ratted out? I just don't get it. I want them gone too, but unless other trainers step up and talk, it isn't going to happen. Somebody on the backstretch has to know.

At least this way you get some email!

Tidied that up for you!

Not really. I asked you before, concerning your reason 1) why don't you want to decrease the pulmonary vascular pressures? Considering 93% of horses have hemosiderophages and RBC's in their alveoli post-exercise, you being against attenuating that makes no sense to me. Please - explain.

And I asked you to give me three reasons you think lasix should not be used, and you indeed listed three. But you refuse to support them with any reasoning, other than you think that merely stating them makes them true? Do you have ANY support for your reasons not to use lasix? Convince me! I'll be glad to change my mind.

I never saw where they worked very well for anything. Like most fads people tried them for awhile and didn't see much difference in anything really. Now they kind of act as a negative sign especially if you are thinking of claiming something with a nasal strip figuring it either bleeds a lot or has a bad airway.

The problem with other trainers "ratting out" other trainers is that without something short of a picture of someone actually giving a horse a shot in the neck or milkshaking a horse it is mostly dismissed as jealousy. Which sometimes it probably is. Perhaps I havent been persistent enough in trying to explain that the "authorities" in most jurisdictions are woefully inept, tragically underfunded or both. At the risk of starting another tangent if the ivory tower crowd focued their energies towards racings farce of a police force the game might actually get a little "cleaner". Instead they worry only about that which they know which in itself is telling.

I guess I'll just never get that. If anyone had any real evidence and went to the press it would be reported. I'm not talking about the phony racing press that is nothing more than a mouthpiece for the elite, I'm talking the real press that would eat something like this up.

You are hilarious. I asked you questions first, which you never answered, and yet I am supposed to go on forever responding to your questions. Yeah, horses get Lasix because it is traditional. That is rich.

The trick is coming up with "real evidence". It isn't like trainers have the ability to do a sting operation on the guy in the next barn. They have these 800 numbers at some tracks to call in anyonomous tips but I have never heard of anything ever coming from those. There was a top trainer at Calder that was tossed off (for a while at least) because a groom he had stiffed on a stakes check actually took a picture of him giving a horse a shot. The irony is the groom just wanted to collect his money, he wasnt looking to be a racetrack cop. But even then the track was the one who took action, not the racing commission.

It just seems there would be a lot more disgruntled employees, and it isn't like backstretch workers don't change barns a lot. I'm with you, I have no doubt there is a lot of cheating going on, I'm just mystified how it remains hidden for so long.

probably because of money. only so much probably budgeted for r & d on drug detection.
then there's just how much can you do to someone if they do get caught. look at the appeals processes and the like.
and you have repeat offenders who get more and better horses after a suspension than they did before. you'd have to think if owners were more inclined to try to avoid cheaters they'd just naturally get winnowed out. no clients, no horses, no job. but no, they get people knocking down their doors.
people talk about changing it, but the only attempt i've seen is what's brought about this thread. seems like there'd be other things to tackle than a drug that may or may not improve a horse, that apparently no longer is a masking drug, and actually has medical benefits.
but, lasix is the bad guy and people like biancone, mullins, dutrow, asmussen are doing fine, if not increasing their numbers of horses.

So, there was a veterinary conference held today at the Horse Park in association with Rolex Three Day Event.

FYI - Jeremy Whitman, current President of the Kentucky Association of Equine Practioners, spoke about what he thought would happen with the Kentucky Thoroughbred racing world regarding lasix. He said that, in his opinion, all the last vote did was, "buy thirty days" and delay the inevitable. He predicts the vote to ban lasix will pass next meeting.

The KAEP, along with the AVMA and AAEP, have all been working very hard for the health and welfare of the race horse. It appears those that manage horse racing in Kentucky will go ahead and simply ignore their medical recommendations.

The horse doesn't come first in Kentucky.

The more that people ignore medical 'experts', the better off everyone and everything will be.

That's right. I'd go with creationism ;)

There were a bunch of big names there ... head vet for the 2012 Olympics, he's done WEG and Pan Am games before, other big names in equine sports med. A little discussion about FEI and European banned substances, state of testing and drug detection, etc.

The US horse racing world is so behind the cheating other horse sports go with, let alone the testing capabilities. Yes, I mean that the TB world doesn't cheat as well, or as creatively, as other horse sports.

Catching it - it's the funding. And lack of real interest in the racing world to actually do something that matters. Hence: ban the (pretend) evil drug that prevents horses from bleeding into their lungs. Yeah, that's exactly what the sport needs now. But hey! "We did something". Pat selves on back as the sport dies and horses get harmed.

Fools.

It bears repeating.

You have something seriously wrong with your ability to comprehend posts you don't agree with.

What the hell does creationism have to do with avoiding doctors/vets?? Seriously?

The sport will not die if lasix is banned.

I agree that the sport will not die is Lasix is banned (although I do not think it should be banned) but the real point of the situation is why Kentucky. The sport is currently floundering here in the state with the inpending closure of Turfway and Ellis Parks after this year. There will be many people losing their jobs because of this and the Lasix will just be the final straw. The only way I would support a ban on Lasix if it were to be a nationwide wide and not just another hit to the sport here in Kentucky.

:zz: Wow. It appears that using humor, by deliberately using an opposite metaphor, or deliberate misuse of logical fallacy, is beyond your understanding :eek:

Please ... don't lecture on "comprehension" when you can't understand the post you are lecturing about - LOL

The only way it would work is nationwide, all at once. This will kill Kentucky racing. But nationwide, it's bad for horses. Lasix is so important for horse health it will be used in the morning for speed work like it is the world over, but we can't use it in the afternoon, when it matters, under the stress of racing, in front of the public? Even though the horses are under the same, if not increased, threat of EIPH? That's beyond ridiculous.

I'll be honest here. I love horse racing, and I make a good living because of it. But, if all horses truly need to be injected with a drug to safely compete, it is probably a sport that should go away.

Horses are injected with a drug to help prevent physical problems that can be caused by what we ask them to do.

It's called "sports medicine" and good medical care. There is a difference between abusive medicine and therapeutic medicine. For god's sake - can we please do what's best for the health of the horse?

Horses - and some dogs and humans, btw - suffer EIPH at speed: race horses, barrel horses, quarter horses, harness horses, event horses, steeplechase horses, fox hunters.

The only way to eliminate EIPH is to eliminate any horse sport that involves speed and maximal effort. It's hardly limited to racing them. It's called Exercise-Induced Pulmonary Hemorrhage.

It's simple - put the welfare of the horse first.

Really? No sh!t. That was my whole point. If every horse needs an injection of drugs to race, we probably shouldn't be racing horses. Now, personally I don't think they all need it, but you know that already. I'm just not sure the US is ready to hear we run a sport where every horse needs drugs to run. How is that going to fly?


I never said it could be eliminated, I'm just saying drugs are overused, but you also know that. Amazingly, the rest of the world seems to do just fine without it, and also kick our ass much of the time. When is the last time a horse from the US shipped overseas and won a race of consequence?

Nobody is advocating that all horses get it. Nobody is saying all horses need it.

But the truth is that 93% of horses that race in North America have evidence of bleeding in their lungs, lasix helps prevent that, and why is the racing industry trying to take that therapeutic help away?

Should we stop working on current research to find other drugs that help prevent or provide relief for EIPH?

Those same horses bleed on race day in other countries that don't use lasix - and suffer worse affects from the episodes because the severity isn't attenuated.

Again: you want to eliminate lasix, eliminate all horse sports at speed. Let's go down the slippery slope of that argument. And prevent some human athletic competitions. And hunting dogs. And if we want to prevent broken legs, or any athletic injuries, to animals, let's just refuse to do anything with horses - or other animals - but watch them be lawn ornaments in pastures. Let's prevent the Amish from using them as carriage horses. Let's let PETA take over the world.

Now, the above is silly. Most of us here love horses, and love horse racing. So let's continue to put the horse first, and make racing them safer and healthier for the horse - not move away from that

You are being ridiculous. Which races allow the humans to take Lasix?

Maybe 93% show "some" bleeding, but of that percentage, how many can race without side effects and really need it to be successful? I'm guessing it is a MUCH smaller number. After all, we had racing for a century before it was deemed necessary for so many horses.

Plain and simple, it was abused because many felt it was a performance enhancer and that those that actually did need it were getting an advantage. So, they started searching for easier and easier ways to get Lasix for the horse. That is what got us where we are today.

I'm saying that Exercise-Induced Pulmonary Hemorrhage is not a problem only of horses.

How do you define "successful"? Earning money?

Because I'm sure the horse would much prefer to have air in his alveolar sacs during running, instead of blood and hemosiderophages. It makes oxygenation easier.

A century ago, we didn't have the modern medical capability we have now. Medical advancement in health care of the horse is a good thing. We didn't have penicillin during World War one. Does that mean we shouldn't have used it in Viet Nam?

And we've raced horses for much longer than a century.

But today we have modern medicine, and research, and we are far more educated on the extent and complications of EIPH in race horses. We are completely familiar with the pharmacology of lasix. We haven't had a problem with lasix diluting drug samples for over 20 years.

So now, with our increased education and knowledge, the veterinary world is advising the horse racing world to allow one drug - lasix - to continue to be used as a therapeutic medication on race day, for the health and welfare of the horse.

But those that control racing are making a stupid, ignorant choice to do the opposite, based upon outdated and no longer valid "reasons and knowledge" from literally decades ago.

1994, BC Classic, 14 horses run, 6 with Lasix. Lasix horses take the first 6 spots.
1995, 10 of 11 with Lasix
1996, 11 of 13
1997, 9 of 9
1998, 9 of 10
1999, 14 of 14
2000, 13 of 13
2001, 13 of 13
2002, 12 of 12
2003, 10 of 10
2004, 12 of 13, foreign shipper lone exception
2005, 13 of 13
2006, 12 of 13, foreign shipper lone exception
2007, 9 of 9
2008, 11 of 12, foreign shipper lone exception
2009, 11 of 12, foreign shipper lone exception
2010, 11 of 12, foreign shipper lone exception
2011, 12 of 12

Since 1999, EVERY American horse in our best race has been injected with a drug to race. Not 93%, but 100%. We are talking around 130 horse and EVERY one was given Lasix. Sure, it isn't abused.

And yet, life goes on without Lasix outside of horse racing in athletic competition.

I'm starting the think the stupid, ignorant choice that was made was allowing Lasix in the first place.

Your assumption is mere use = abuse.

My viewpoint - based upon the science - is that use = therapy good for the horse.

Who cares what was done 10 years ago? 100 years ago? What matters is what we know now, today, about the horse's health.

And those that know race horse health best, the veterinary world, based upon today's medical knowledge and research, are advising the racing world to allow one drug - lasix - to be used on race day as a therapeutic medication for the health and welfare of the race horse.

Simple, 93% of horses allegedly need it, yet 100% get it. Sure, that makes sense.