No softer than Minnesota or Arizona and they are quite good. Maybe not AFC good but definitely could win the NFC.

i wasn't talking about the team , i was talking just about the "d"

bob i watched the whole pittsburgh game 2 weeks ago , is that really a championship d?

rogers can carry them for a couple of wins no question about it , but , is the "d" really good eneough to take them all the way ....that is what i am talking about

I think that it could get them to the Super Bowl... Sure why not? I really think that the NFC is wide open.

Saints- Arguebly the best team, but haven't looked like worldbeaters the last few weeks.

Vikings- Dangerous team who is a lot better at home and would have to beat the Pack for a third time (didn't work out so well for Dallas a few years ago).

Cards- High powered offense that did beat the Vikings. But you talk about schedules, they didn't exactly beat a cast of world beaters. But probably gained some valueable experience last year.

Cowboys- Dr. Jeckell - Mr. Hyde. They could either be lights out or just God awful. Never know what you are going to get.

Eagles- A team with defensive trouble. Plus people are jumping off the bandwagon quick after last weeks debacle.

It makes me use to vomit to talk about Green Bay, yet alone Dallas in a good light. But ask Dallas if Green Bay is a championship caliber D? Dallas got 278 total yds of offense in their game. 63 in the final drive for their only score in garbage time.

Even when Warner and the rest of the offense is back in full, GB is not a team that matches well for them.

Only allowed 185 to Baltimore.

Football Outsiders adjusts their defensive stats to every team playing an average schedule and every team recovering the average number of fumbles. The Packers defense still come out #2:

http://www.footballoutsiders.com/stats/teamdef

I'll tell you this matt , the 2 nfc winners this week whomever they are can all knock off the saints and vikings

i agree the nfc is wide open

i'm not sold on the packer d , but, as i said rogers can carry them a couple of games , i don't think they can win 3 in a row on the road imo against playoff teams

as far rematches , the cowboys get the eagles for a 3rd time this yr. it is very hard to beat a team 3 times as the cowboys know from 2 yrs ago when they had a bye and waited for the giants to come to them for game 3 ....we know what happened

i think big d benefits here as they play right away , i also think big d has the better d and as long as romo does not implode they should win

2 yrs ago i thought the 7 pt underdog giants had a chance becuase i never got the feeling that dallas was that much better than them in either game during the regular season , if i remember right the 1st game was in big d and it was a shootout and game 2 at the meadowlands was close until TO got free for one late. Watching both philly games this year , i just don't see the philly o being able to do much against the cowboys d ......they will need help from their d to create scoring opportunites

That's fine, but that doesn't mean that the Packers offense couldn't win a shootout if necessary either.

i agree with that and never said they couldn't win a couple that way

my original comment said that their d was not good and i stanby that no matter what the numbers say .....they looked like swiss cheese against big ben a few wks ago

here is a good snapshot on the packer d this year:
i still think that rodgers can get them a win or two , but see below about the defense i was talking about

"Just for fun I decided to break down this awesome Green Bay defense to see just how great they are and this is what I came up with.

Green Bay played the following teams which were in the top 10 in total offense- (this is not a comparison of Arizona to Green Bay, just an analysis of games played by them)

Minnesota twice
Dallas at home once
Pittsburgh once

GreenBay played the following teams in the bottom 10 in total offense-

Cleveland
Chicago twice
St.Louis
Tampa Bay
San Fran
Detroit twice

In total Green Bay has played 4 games against top teams and 8 games against bottom teams.

In the games that Minny played against the top teams, the following results occured.

Green Bay went 1-3 against teams with superior offenses, a win against Dallas and losses in the other three games.

Green Bay gave up 320 yards offense in the first Minny game and 30 points. In the second game they gave up 350 yards offense and 38 points. Against Dallas they gave up 275 yds and 7 points (good game at home) and against Pitt they gave up 560 yards and 37 points.

The only team they faced in the last half of the season was Pitt that had a good offense and they gave up a ton of passing yards and lost the game.

If you play enough games against bad teams, the defense can look good on paper.

Last season the Cards played multiple opponents that were top in defense, but they won the games and I think the same theory stands here.

If Arizona plays their game and meets or exceeds their normal offensive numbers, they stand a very very good chance at winning the game.

Stats have to be evaluated in context to have pertinence."

Any reason to consider the fact that they were learning a new defense and it doesn't happen over night and it took 7-8 games for them to understand what they were trying to do under Capers?

you can argue that if you would like , but let's look at the last 8 games an see what we have , is that not fair?

dallas - best defenseive game of the year against a quality offense
sf - garbage
det - garbage
balt - decent effort at home against a playoff team with an offense middle of the pack
chi - a step above garbage but not much
pit - no comment needed on this one
sea - west coast team in lambeau in dec that had it shut down
az - can't count this one

so if i look at the last 8 games , you really can only talk about 2 games where the "d" did much - the dallas game and the balt game

of the other 6 games what did they really do???

So 7-9 & 8-8 teams in the NFL are garbage now?
They won 7 out of the last 8. With 24 being the most points they gave up in those games (excluding the loss against Pittsburgh on the road) and that being against the so called "garbage" 8-8 Niners. No one is saying that they are the '85 Bears, but try giving the Pack a little credit.

Dallas-great d game
SF- sub par game
Det- smoked them and allowed 12 pts
Balt- great d effort
Chi- good d effort against a tough rival on the road
Pit- terrible d effort on the road
Sea-destroyed them
Az-destroyed them from the start when AZ had all starters playing

Your arguement is based on the quality of who they play, but
Dallas is the 3 seed- got a garbage td at end of the game
SF- 8-8 team
Det- well they suck
Balt - 6 seed 9-7 team
Chi 7-9 team
Pitt 9-7
sea 5-11 and yeah they suck but did nothing at all against the d
AZ 4 seed and they had the starters in until it was 14-0

the offenses stink for 4 of those teams , arizona game is meaningless
so you have 7 games to look at - throw out det , chi , sea , sf - all putrid teams on offense

i give you dallas and balt , pitt was a disaster tell me how they win 3 games agianst az , no , minn or dallas or philly with this D

i don't see it

i can see rodgers winning a game or two , but ,i don't see the D getting them to miami

Was just looking at the Garbage 49ers.
Look at their 8 losses.
@ Minny
vs Atl (still healthy at the time)
@ Houston
@ Indy
vs Tenn (at the begining of their roll)
@ GB
@ Seattle (That's a bad one, lost in last second)
@ Philly

Granted they play in argueably the weakest division, but that certainly wasn't the easiest schedeule in NFL history with alot of tough games which they ended up losing on the road. But, they were far from garbage.

just to be clear when i say garbage , i am specifically talking about that team's offense , not the entire team

the 49ers we both no matt have a tremendous D and are led by a defenseive minded head coach

l

Marty I don't have a dog in this fight (maybe a bad choice of words), but I think you a very quick to discount games that they won against lesser teams. You keep mentioning the Pittsburgh game. They are the reigning champions for cryin out loud. Who were embarrassed while scoring 6 points in Cleveland the week before. Plus they dropped the game vs Oakland the week prior to that. They still had a chance and were playing for their playoff lives at the time. I just think you can't only discount the games that you want and keep bringing up one game that the defending champs needed to have to stay alive for the playoffs,

i'm not dis-counting games

my feeling is that this defense will have to make some plays in the playoffs to advance

it maybe this sunday , it maybe rd 2 . it mabye the nfc title game , but , there will be a spot in the playoffs where the defense will have to win a game for them as rodgers won't be able to put the team on his back all the way to miami

the defense has played well at times , but , to think they are the 2nd best unit in the league is hysterical if you look deeply at their schedule and realize that cleveland , detroit , san fran , seattle , and chicago won't be on the slate . most likely the slate will include warner , brees and favre , maybe romo or mcnabb - do you see the defense doing it 3 weeks in a row againstthis caliber of competetion - i don't

Um, Marty, aside from the bizarro Raiders can you find me any team that plays better against good teams than they do against the bad ones? That is the way it works. The fact is, the Packers have done better against those bad teams than other defenses have. Against the Cowboys and Cardinals they completely shut down good offenses. They played well enough to win at Pittsburgh until the last play. The only team in the NFC that worries me in regards to the Packers are the Vikings who they clearly struggled with.

Everyone's defense is going to have to step up. I think you are just hung up with all the stats saying that they are the 2nd best defense in the league. Honestly, who cares about those numbers? There is only one thing that matters right now and it's getting to that game in Miami in a couple of weeks. And realistically with the offense that they have, the defense doesn't have to be perfect for them to win. All numbers and stats go out the window at this point. And with the exception of Cowboys right now, who is playing better football in the NFC? I don't see any reason that they can't make it to Miami.

you seriously are not couting the cardinals game from last week are u?

that aside , my question to you is can this defense hold up for 3 weeks on the road (assuming philly is out)

to me i don't see it , they haven't done it well eneough agianst the best teams (except the dallas game)

i think rogers can win them a game maybe two , but , do you really think this defense will get them to a superbowl , i'm sorry i just don't see it , can they win a shootout yes of course (the lost to pitt on the last play of the game)

i just don't see that D doing it for 3 straight weeks on the road against winning teams - tell me why i am wrong aobut that ?

reason - 3 weeks in a row on the road , going against warner , brees , favre /romo

do you really think this D will hold up against all 3 qb's and offenses in 3 straight weeks on the road, i'm sorry i just don't see it , winning on the road in the playoffs is difficult eneough , not having a shutdown D makes it even harder , all the pressure will be on rodgers for 3 weeks , i'm betting that he cracks in 1 of those weeks

they are a good team , with a top qb , i just don't get the reason for the packer lovefest, the "D" is avg at best and in my opinion will not hold up over 3 weeks on the road

Yes, I do think they can make the Super Bowl. Their defense and their offense can both play solid games and they can win. They don't need one or the other to win them every game like you are making it out to be. The rest of the teams in the NFC look really bad right now, it isn't completely impossible they could wind up hosting the NFC championship, both New Orleans and Minnesota are not playing their best football right now.

you need philly to win , while not impossible , highly unlikely

let's keep it simple

stranger things have happened before , but, unless they get the eagles at home in the nfc championship game , i just don't see it - i can't see them winning 3 games on the road all vs teams with winning records - can you see them winning 3 road games to get to the superbowl with this D? i just don't see it scott

az - did they look bad when the buried minnesoata 3 weeks ago? what did they have to play for at 4:00 when the #2 seed was gone and they were locked into playing the following week?

dallas - they looked bad in GB , but since then with a lone loss to SD by 3 pts surely they aren't palying bad are they? no way the packer D is better than wade phillips unit

minn and no - both beatable , az and dallas have beaten them , packers couldn't split with the vikings

Don't discount the fact that they could run the ball too. But I just don't understand the lovefest with the rest of the NFC, Like I said, besides Dallas (as painful as it for me to say that) who has been worldbeaters the last few weeks? They lost by a TD when they played in Minny in what was a close game stats wide.
Like I said, I think the NFC is wide open. A couple of years ago no one gave the Giants a shot (including myself, with exception in reguards to that Tampa game. I just thought the Bucs sucked {sorry Bigs & Rude}), but they went on the road and beat Romo and Favre in their respective homes and the way to winning the Super Bowl. As far as I'm concerned it's wide open and they have the talent to make it.

fair point - i still just don't see this team winning 3 in a row on the road , the giants and steelers did it , but it is very rare for it to happen

fwiw

sos:

az = 32nd
gb = 31st


in my opinion if warner gets pass protection the cards find a way to win the game at home , gb will need to get to him , don't want it to be a close game packer fans and leave it in warners and the officals hands at the end , better blow them out early

I think the Philly-Dallas game is a win-win for the Packers. With a Dallas win they get to play New Orleans instead of the team that has given them fits in Minnesota. With a Philly win they have to play Minnesota but at that point would have a very realistic chance of hosting the NFC Championship if they could get by the Vikings. If they have to play at both New Orleans and at Minnesota it will be really tough but I do see plenty of scenarios where that wouldn't happen and even the possibility of finishing up at home against the Eagles.

scott just stick to the question i asked , hoping for the eagles to win 2 games would be a bonus for rd 3 , but it's highly unlikely as they seem to have no answer to the dallas d

do you think this team can win 3 playoff road games , the most likely scenario , and get to the super bowl? I say no

The packers offense I believe is more suited to play in warm weather or a dome than at lambeau in Jan. If the wind is blowing 20-30 mph and it is near zero it will be hard to throw the ball down field. Whoever gets hot in the playoffs will represent the NFC. It is really wide open...

Yes, but if they have to go to both Minnesota and New Orleans it will be very tough. Games at Arizona and at Dallas are nothing to be scared of.

ok we shall see

everyone keeps writing off the cardinals , that's fine , keep in mind that this will be rodgers 1st start in the playoffs and the building when sold out is not an easy place to win , i love how everyone has the packers going here , going there , we shall see on sunday where they go

in reality GB will have to do something that has never been done i believe - they will have to win 4 straight games away from home (last week's game + 3 in the playoffs)

if they get to the nfc game , that 4th week in a row on the road will be a tough tall order and will probably make them a good (assuming philly loses) bet against

Marty, you are right so far. The Packers D looks like swiss cheese. Can't get to Warner, can't cover and can't tackle.

would you care to take this statement back?

how bout some swiss cheese for lunch this week mr capers?

there are stats , stats and stas , and then lies

What a wild ride that was...Easy to find cause..

Starting DBs for GB mid season:

Woodson
Harris
Collins
Blackmon
Bigby
Lee

Left from that group yesterday:
Woodson
Collins

Eveyone else lost to injury during season or during game.

They will be fine...get healthy and add a few bodies next year. Great run from a team not many expected much from this year installing a new Defensive scheme

as i said to billy and you can ask , unless they (the front the dl) could get to warner they would be in big trouble , it didn't matter who was back there , the only way to beat the cardinals besides outscroring them is to hit warner early and oftern with your dl , the lack of pass rush from the dl is also a major hole come playoff time - you gotta get to the qb

correct me if i am wrong but no one mentioned these injuries until you did this am bob , everyone told me the packer d would be fine because they were playing well at the end of the season , my rebutall was the pittsburgh game exposed them and i was told it's just 1 game

i gave them credit for the big d game and for the balt game , but outside of those games the D really hadn't done much all year against quality opponents

as good as rodgers and the offense was , the D forced 1 , count it bob , 1 punt all day .....1 punt

each time the offense rallied the D had a chance - at 17-7 they let warner go right down the field for 24-7

after halftime , warner goes right down the field 31-10

after the onside kick recovery and ensuing td make it 31-24 , warner goes right back to work and makes it 38-24

next, the d get 1 stop and thus rodges is able to tie the game at 38

win the game now green bay d , not what happens .....warner chews right through the d to go back up 45-38

rodgers with one of the best performances ever by a qb win or lose ties the game agian

on the next drive , it's a total disaster , do anything you can to force ot , instead the D gets bailed out by a neil rackers miss at the buzzer

bob they have a long way to go

Didnt hurt that Arizona got every call their way including the last face mask they let go.

We'll agree to disagree...Excuses/reasons are a slippery slope, but if you can't see why their secondary was in disarray due to injuries, then there is nothing more to talk about. They couldn't rush/blitz Warner more because the back ups, and even Woodson at times, weren't tackling or covering anyone.

The Bears have a long way to go. The Packers made the playoffs and their lack of defensive depth was exposed. They have a short way to go