Originally Posted by The Bid

He was controlling speed in every race he ran because he was an incredible talent.

Kelly's Landing (1.5 million)was a nice horse, Egg Head was going to be a very nice horse, Santana Strings (550k) was a nice horse. He ran against and drilled some very good horses. When he won he didnt outbob horses, he ran them into the ground. He danced every dance as a 3yo, the only race he didnt make was the Malibu because he had cancer. His 2yo season was also incredible, never running a sub 102 figure.

It is impossible to say how good he was, but its safe to say he was a monster and certainly deserves to be on a list of top 3yo.

Originally Posted by Danzig

but i thought the question was top 25 three year olds?

Originally Posted by slotdirt

Did I just see a somerfrost appearance? Perhaps a Derby angles list is forthcoming soon?

Originally Posted by Cajungator26

It was... which is why I didn't include him.

Originally Posted by DaHoss9698

I have to jump in this LITF debate here. Personally I think it's kind of silly to put him on the list. While it's not his fault no one ran against him up to the Breeders Cup, winning races over Egg Head doesnt make you great. His 3 year old season was very good. But unfortunately when he faced his best field he faltered. Maybe he was sick, but we'll never know for sure.

I think if he is on the list then Honour and Glory has to be also. He faced much better and actually defeated his elders, in May of his 3 year old season in the Met Mile, shading 1:33 for a mile in the process, while running hard every step of the way. He also had a full campaign running in California, New york, Canada and Kentucky. His record isn't as flashy as LITF's, but there is no doubt in my mind that if he was running in those races that LITF was he would have been undefeated and I think he was a much better horse than LITF.

Originally Posted by easy goer

This is an interesting discussion certainly but the one thing I dont get is why are some folks so certain that Smarty Jones is overrated? The one horse that I find that looks most similar to him in terms of his career/three yr old season is Majestic Prince.

9 wins out of 10, and failed to win the Belmont.

But in Smarty's case he seems more dominant over his field than Majestic Prince. And, he came very close to winning the TC whereas Majestic Pr. really had no chance from the start. That to me makes his run at the TC even more exciting than MP.

I dunno if MP is in the Hall of Fame (I didnt look at the site) but clearly a close case can be made for him and if so...how can you be so certain that Smary is overrated?

Originally Posted by easy goer

This is an interesting discussion certainly but the one thing I dont get is why are some folks so certain that Smarty Jones is overrated? The one horse that I find that looks most similar to him in terms of his career/three yr old season is Majestic Prince.

9 wins out of 10, and failed to win the Belmont.

But in Smarty's case he seems more dominant over his field than Majestic Prince. And, he came very close to winning the TC whereas Majestic Pr. really had no chance from the start. That to me makes his run at the TC even more exciting than MP.

I dunno if MP is in the Hall of Fame (I didnt look at the site) but clearly a close case can be made for him and if so...how can you be so certain that Smary is overrated?

Originally Posted by RolloTomasi

Top 25 Derby Also-Rans That Didn't Win The Preakness or Belmont:

Gulch- 87
Cryptoclearance- 87
Seeking the Gold- 88
Hawkster- 89
Lost Mountain- 91
Fly So Free- 91
Dr. Devious- 92
Kissin Kris- 93
Holy Bull- 94
Soul of the Matter- 94
Honour and Glory- 96
Skip Away- 96
Old Trieste- 98
Favorite Trick- 98
General Challenge- 99
War Chant- 00
Captain Steve- 00
Startac- 01
Harlan's Holiday- 02
Came Home- 02
Medaglia D'Oro- 02
Ten Most Wanted- 03
Showing Up- 06
Tiago- 07
Any Given Saturday- 07

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

I'll give you a horse that I assume hasn't been mentioned, and probably has no business being on a legitimate list, but was one of the best 3YOs of the last 20 years when sound.......Unbridled's Song.

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

I'll give you a horse that I assume hasn't been mentioned, and probably has no business being on a legitimate list, but was one of the best 3YOs of the last 20 years when sound.......Unbridled's Song.

Originally Posted by King Glorious

Lawyer Ron, Artax, Louis Quatorze, Serena's Song, Tabasco Cat, Devil His Due, Corporate Report. None of them could beat out Startac or Kissin Kris in your opinion?

Originally Posted by SniperSB23

Draw a line above Funny Cide's Belmont and compare the Beyers for the two to that point. Smarty got a 99 or 100 in the Belmont which is missing. There really isn't much to seperate them now is there? One just happened to run against much better horses and the other had the benefit of retiring right after his peak.

Originally Posted by RolloTomasi

Top 25 Favorite Derby Flops:

Originally Posted by easy goer

So it's all based on Beyer numbers? I knew I was missing something.

Originally Posted by easy goer

So it's all based on Beyer numbers? I knew I was missing something.

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

Don't sell yourself short....you're missing more than that.

Being that most top horses retire early, and never get to meet horses of other generations, there really is no unbiased way to compare them without using speed figures. Since Beyers are the most widespread it is hardly surprising that people use them as the example.

Originally Posted by RolloTomasi

Didn't you read the title? You can scratch Louis Quatorze and Tabasco Cat right away.

Serena's Song is a filly. I am a misogynist.

Lawyer Ron did what after the TC? 2nd in the Super Derby? Great.

Artax? A distant 2nd to Sea of Secrets in an allowance and a 2nd to Run Man Run in the Malibu? Stellar.

Devil His Due? Chased a NY-bred at Saratoga. A-one.

There was a bunch of good also-rans in '91 (Sea Cadet was in there, too). In my haste, I left off Travers winner Corporate Report.

Originally Posted by RolloTomasi

Top 25 Lightning Will Not Strike Twice 3yos:

Honor Grades after Summer Squall
Tiago after Giacomo
Cahill Road after Unbridled
Prince of Thieves after Timber Country
Rebel Alliance after Sunday Silence
Demons Begone before Pine Bluff
Honor Grades before AP Indy
Pleasant Tap before Go For Gin
Hold That Tiger after Editor's Note
Tossofthecoin before Charismatic
Millenium Wind after Charismatic
So Long Birdie after Birdstone
Fast Play after Seeking The Gold
Citidancer before Will's Way
Excavate before Menifee
Bravo Mondo after Hansel
Corker after Strodes Creek
Exetera after Sea Cadet
On Target after Sea Cadet
Defere after Dehere
Pendleton Ridge before Lost Mountain
Exploit after Prized
Whywhywhy before Spellbinder
Spellbinder after Whywhywhy
Jazil before Rags To Riches

Originally Posted by King Glorious

I don't know why I left LQ and Tabasco Cat on there. But let's look at the rest. You obviously are looking at only what the horses did in the remainder of their 3yo seasons. So with that in mind, how do Harlan's Holiday, Cryptoclearance, and Kissin Kris make it but Flower Alley doesn't? Harlan's Holiday won the Penn Derby and Cryptoclearance won the Pegasus. You make not like fillies much but isn't Serena's Song's Haskell against the boys the equal of Kissin Kris' win in the same race? I thought that Nobiz was at least as good as Favorite Trick was.

Originally Posted by RolloTomasi

I missed Flower Alley, too. I don't really care for Harlan's Holiday either, so he can replace him. Cryptoclearance butted heads with all sorts of good horses in '87 and the Pegasus was still Grade 1 at the time so he stays.

Serena's Song is a filly. She doesn't qualify.

Nobiz Like Shobiz was good for about the last 400 yards of the lowly Jamaica. Other than that, his performances all year were atrocious. He sucks. Favorite Trick won the Jim Dandy. That's huge in my book.

Originally Posted by King Glorious

I think Cryptoclearance was a very good horse and deserves to be on the list. He just came in a really tough year. But if winning a single grade one afterwards gets you on, there are quite a few that I wonder about. Lion Heart won the Haskell. Is the Haskell no longer up to the level of the Dandy? I notice you have Favorite Trick and Fly So Free on there (both Dandy winners) but not Lion Heart and Serena's Song, both Haskell winners. If it seems like I'm questioning your opinions, I'm sorry. I'm not meaning too. I just wondered what were determining factors for you in who does or doesn't make it. For the record, I'd agree with about 80% of your list so we aren't that far off.

Originally Posted by King Glorious

I don't know why I left LQ and Tabasco Cat on there. But let's look at the rest. You obviously are looking at only what the horses did in the remainder of their 3yo seasons. So with that in mind, how do Harlan's Holiday, Cryptoclearance, and Kissin Kris make it but Flower Alley doesn't? Harlan's Holiday won the Penn Derby and Cryptoclearance won the Pegasus. You make not like fillies much but isn't Serena's Song's Haskell against the boys the equal of Kissin Kris' win in the same race? I thought that Nobiz was at least as good as Favorite Trick was.

Originally Posted by easy goer

You know what we ought to do is take the best sets of BSFs from three year olds to determine who really are the top 25. I wonder where Lionheart comes out. Or LITF, or Go for Gin..

Originally Posted by smuthg

I must agree. I think it was JJ Graci who said on ATRAB the day that LITF died that he had never seen any horse with Fog's ability to break from the gate and be three jumps in front of good horses before they realized what happened. Now, does that make him an all time great? No, but I think to say that he wasn't one of the best 3YO's in the last 25 years is a stretch...

Originally Posted by SniperSB23

Here for starters:

http://www.drf.com/row/pps/smartyjones.pdf

http://www.drf.com/row/pps/funnycide.pdf

Draw a line above Funny Cide's Belmont and compare the Beyers for the two to that point. Smarty got a 99 or 100 in the Belmont which is missing. There really isn't much to seperate them now is there? One just happened to run against much better horses and the other had the benefit of retiring right after his peak.

Originally Posted by easy goer

You know what we ought to do is take the best sets of BSFs from three year olds to determine who really are the top 25. I wonder where Lionheart comes out. Or LITF, or Go for Gin..

Originally Posted by horseofcourse

OH man...that's my schtick!! I used to get humiliated on the other board for doing this!!

Originally Posted by zippyneedsawin

That may not be as easy as it appears. When the results are tabulated, they may need to 'adjust' the figures.

Originally Posted by freddymo

I guess JJ never saw Groovy

Originally Posted by King Glorious

It's always amazing to me that pass that Groovy and Housebuster get for being brilliant in every other race and then coming up with a loss in the BC while Fog is not given the same pass. Especially since he was dead half a year later. Hell, Groovy flopped not once but TWICE, both times at odds-on.