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-   -   3/28 (GP): Florida Derby (G1); Swale (G2); Appleton (G3) (http://www.derbytrail.com/forums/showthread.php?t=28606)

The Indomitable DrugS 03-29-2009 12:08 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by DaHoss9698
You know what I'm saying. I don't mind a lightning fast, FAIR surface. But generally, don't you expect the surface on the big days to be quicker than usual?

Was there any doubt after the first today? Which by the way, was a super performance by Just Ben I thought. I loved his dam when she was running.
Yeah - Chip was nice ... and yeah ... on the biggest days ... the track is typically made very fast.

Every year going back almost as far as I can remember people complain about it at the Derby. Yet, you have had 7 of the last 12 Derby winners take the Preakness ... and of the 12 only Monarchos and Barbaro missed the board in the Preakness. You've had a wide variety of successful running styles as well...and considering the massive field size - you've had more fairly run races than you'd expect. I never got the complaining.

Antitrust32 03-29-2009 01:10 AM
It doesnt bother me if Pletcher complains... who cares really.. its fucl<ing horse racing. But he has a heck of a horse and it will really upset me if some euro piece of trash who won some stupid race gets in before just him.

He can win the Derby as easily as the other few good horses this year.

This was a good race and I'm happy to see some quality horses after last year....

Bigsmc 03-29-2009 06:51 AM
I haven't read all of the threads yet, but no love for Big Drama (so far)?

I thought that was pretty impressive off the layoff. Fawkes is doing some fine work with this horse.

:tro:

Kasept 03-29-2009 07:00 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ELA
Also? Steve, I didn't defend what Pletcher said. It just didn't surprise me. In addition, I didn't say anyone should sympathize with Pletcher. I just think it's very easy to understand him being disappointed.

Pletcher's a big boy, playing in the big leagues and if someone in the media wants to "call him out" so to speak regarding these comments, they will. Were there some excuses here? Sure. Like I said, he was disappointed. His horse got beat. Period.

Eric
His grousing was laughable. He's supposed to be the "ulimate professional horse trainer", and if that's the case, you acknowledge the winner and move on. During the 'vintage' Pletcher era, Dunkirk may have been ready to run a third big race in a relatively short time... Alas, those halcyon days are gone. The salad days as it were... Maybe DougS can pull the info up, but I'd guess that Pletcher has benefitted dozens of times from 'big day' racetracks when his horses would 're-break' at the top of the stretch and power away from fields. (Remember all those 4-5 winners that have largely disappeared from his shed?) Didn't hear him whine like a 4 year old about those surfaces.

Kasept 03-29-2009 07:03 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by justindew
However, if your analysis of him looking less than 100% is on the money, then I'd have to agree that pushing on is a bad decision. I had heard he looked like a million bucks.
You heard he looked like a million bucks? I strongly suggest you stop taking recommendations of horse appearence from whoever told you that.



Quote:
Originally Posted by prudery
Nice catch on Dunkirk's appearance---it has not been brought up much .

I thought he looked like a skinny filly coming down the stretch, and Kate Moss when they hosed him down--too bloody frail and tucked up .

Not an animal you would expect to have the physical reserves/resources to be bound for the classics ...
Thank you prudery... That's a nice compliment coming from an actual judge of horseflesh.

Danzig 03-29-2009 07:33 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ELA
Yes, I'll agree. You can look to Big Brown, Curlin, etc. OK. So, what are they going to do here, run again to get in? Which race? I just don't see it. I think people will debate it all day, but the bottom line is that he didn't do enough to get in. With Big Brown, simply put, he won it so it was clear cut. Curlin -- he had a G3 and a G2 in his last two starts before the Derby.

Regardless, I see your point. I just don't see Dunkirk doing anything but sitting on the bubble and waiting. If he gets in, sure he'll run, but I don't see it being the ideal, far from it.

Eric
after reading what pletcher had said before the race, i don't expect they run him again.

Danzig 03-29-2009 07:38 AM
i think he could have expressed his obvious disappointment in a better way than pointing fingers at the surface. no doubt he was incredibly down, not only did he lose the fla derby, he pretty much lost the kentucky derby as well. if he really thought this horse could win THAT race, then the blow was far more serious than getting a second in a gr 1. but he played his hand-perhaps poorly? ultimately, he has to take the blame, he's the one who chose the venue-and chose not to run europe.

maybe the withers and then preakness?

Kasept 03-29-2009 07:47 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by DaHoss9698
Steve, I generally agree about the whining. And I absolutely agree that he doesn't say a word if he's training Quality Road instead of Dunkirk. Pletcher is better than that, but I can't help but think back to last year's Belmont. For weeks Dutrow provided countless soundbites and quotes for us all to discuss and/or mock. Big Brown flops in the Belmont and Dutrow is nowhere to be found. I know many, including myself criticized him for it.

Now, lets consider for a second that it was the heat of the moment yesterday. I would imagine it's taken all of the effort in the world to get this horse ready for a smasher yesterday (he doesn't appear the soundest of sorts). They knew this was the make it or break it and they fell a little short. Wouldn't you be upset? Maybe he took it out on the wrong people and he was more frustrated with the situation than anything. But, if he doesn't say a word to the media, I'm sure there are people criticizing that. If we want connections reactions immediately after a race, we should expect that the reactions aren't always going to be gracious. I'm not excusing the whine, I just understand why he did it.
I understand exactly why he did it. He's a snide and churlish guy. And it's even marginably excusable under duress... But he's the guy who wanted to build the Microsoft of racing operations, so don't be lashing out when you get a Vista result.

Sightseek 03-29-2009 07:47 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bigsmc
I haven't read all of the threads yet, but no love for Big Drama (so far)?

I thought that was pretty impressive off the layoff. Fawkes is doing some fine work with this horse.

:tro:
I agree.

robfla 03-29-2009 08:14 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kasept
You heard he looked like a million bucks? I strongly suggest you stop taking recommendations of horse appearAnce from whoever told you that.
I am going to guess that "looking like a million bucks" is NOT a good thing when the purchase price was 3.7mm

Kasept 03-29-2009 08:17 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by DaHoss9698
That was a Vista result?

I guess I just get a chuckle out of people being outraged that someone reacted negatively to something like watching their chances of going to the Derby probably ended. I'll tell you one thing, I'm glad there isn't a camera on me when I lose a photo for a big score or get DQ'd. I'm sure we all are.
Who's outraged? I'm amused.

fpsoxfan 03-29-2009 08:21 AM
After reading through this thread, I went to espn.com and watch the race again. IMO the better horse won this race fair and square. Dunkirk made a huge move and Quality Road who rated nicely behind the speed just pulled away from him. Souped up track or not Quality Road is just a better horse at this point in time. I really don't understand how this track could've been unfair to Dunkirk. As far as Pletcher being a bit rude...whatever. It's like a coach blaming the refs/umps for losing a game. You're emotional/frustrated and later realize you shouldn't of said it. How about Jimmy Jerkens? It sure is nice to see him go to the big show.

philcski 03-29-2009 08:24 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by DaHoss9698
Steve, I generally agree about the whining. And I absolutely agree that he doesn't say a word if he's training Quality Road instead of Dunkirk. Pletcher is better than that, but I can't help but think back to last year's Belmont. For weeks Dutrow provided countless soundbites and quotes for us all to discuss and/or mock. Big Brown flops in the Belmont and Dutrow is nowhere to be found. I know many, including myself criticized him for it.

Now, lets consider for a second that it was the heat of the moment yesterday. I would imagine it's taken all of the effort in the world to get this horse ready for a smasher yesterday (he doesn't appear the soundest of sorts). They knew this was the make it or break it and they fell a little short. Wouldn't you be upset? Maybe he took it out on the wrong people and he was more frustrated with the situation than anything. But, if he doesn't say a word to the media, I'm sure there are people criticizing that. If we want connections reactions immediately after a race, we should expect that the reactions aren't always going to be gracious. I'm not excusing the whine, I just understand why he did it.
Dutrow's only excuse after the Belmont was "no excuse". He went to the barn and sulked by himself. Initially he took a shot at Desormeaux but later retracted. I have no problem with that, I'd rather hear that than "Mr. Microsoft" blaming the track superintendent when the truth was he got run off his feet by a BETTER HORSE.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kasept
I understand exactly why he did it. He's a snide and churlish guy. And it's even marginably excusable under duress... But he's the guy who wanted to build the Microsoft of racing operations, so don't be lashing out when you get a Vista result.
:tro: This might be your all time best analogy- I laughed

philcski 03-29-2009 09:09 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by DaHoss9698
Run off his feet? I must have watched a different race. One more time, I'm not excusing the whining. I think it was poor judgement on his part. But, he was right and he was frustrated in the heat of the moment. Don't we all say things we regret during those times, right or wrong?
Actually I just saw the ESPN feed for the first time, versus the paraphrased comments in the DRF, etc. What Pletcher said wasn't as damning as I had understood them to be, he did praise Quality Road for one. No question he was dejected and searching for something with a microphone in his face.


Additionally, I caution everyone to be careful to automatically stamp the track as biased. EVERY SINGLE horse that won on or near the lead figured prominently- either the favorite or 2nd choice. Truly cheap speed did quit as expected- see Vitruvius' race as well as Casey's On Call. We all love to see the Silky Sullivan-type late rallies but the fact is having a pace advantage means a lot in this game. It's certainly OK to put a question mark next to all of the performances today but I wouldn't be surprised to find out later that the track was indeed fairer than people are crediting it to be.

NTamm1215 03-29-2009 09:12 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by philcski
Actually I just saw the ESPN feed for the first time, versus the paraphrased comments in the DRF, etc. What Pletcher said wasn't as damning as I had understood them to be, he did praise Quality Road for one. No question he was dejected and searching for something with a microphone in his face.


Additionally, I caution everyone to be careful to automatically stamp the track as biased. EVERY SINGLE horse that won on or near the lead figured prominently- either the favorite or 2nd choice. Truly cheap speed did quit as expected- see Vitruvius' race as well as Casey's On Call. We all love to see the Silky Sullivan-type late rallies but the fact is having a pace advantage means a lot in this game. It's certainly OK to put a question mark next to all of the performances today but I wouldn't be surprised to find out later that the track was indeed fairer than people are crediting it to be.
Very well said, Phil, and this was the first thing I noticed going back thru the charts and replays yesterday. Even the nightcap was formful with the 3rd place finisher arguably winning handily with a better ride.

Pletcher made remarks about a souped up track, which sure it may have been souped up, but souped up doesn't equal speed-favoring or biased.

NT

justindew 03-29-2009 09:19 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by NTamm1215
Very well said, Phil, and this was the first thing I noticed going back thru the charts and replays yesterday. Even the nightcap was formful with the 3rd place finisher arguably winning handily with a better ride.

Pletcher made remarks about a souped up track, which sure it may have been souped up, but souped up doesn't equal speed-favoring or biased.

NT
I think this is a fair point, but really, would Quality Road have been able to "re-break" like that after those fractions on a normal GP surface?


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