KRIM
"The owner said that War Pass was sick. Based on how he ran yesterday, I'm sure he wasn't 100% and they knew it. It wasn't so much that they ran him when he was not 100%. It was more of the fact that they ran a GI horse in a GIII race that really doesn't matter that much when the horse wasn't 100% when the KD should be the goal and is only two months away. If it would have been an important GI, and the horse wasn't 100%, and they raced him anyway, my views would be different."

I have no clue what you are blathering about.


You're about as decisive as Hillary is on illegal immigrants. No comprende.

Unlike the dam's of Colonel John and El Gato Malo, who ran their best race on turf, the dam of Georgie Boy hated the turf.

If people are looking for horses to "move up" going from synthetic to dirt based on pedigree - they should look for horses who were out of dams who didn't care for the turf - and by sires who are low percentage turf and synthetic sires.

These horses don't need to move up on the dirt. If Colonel John didn't improve at all from synthetic to dirt and stayed the same, I would still be happy with him at this point. Might change my opinion though. Still quite a few weeks until the derby.

I'm just confused as to how you can have different views on whether or not a horse that is less than 100% (whether it be lameness or illness) should be run. I don't give a crap whether it's a Grade 1 or a Grade 3, a horse that is sick shouldn't be run. If the Grade 1 race is as important as you say, then they shouldn't run a sick animal knowing that their chances could possibly be compromised.

WTF? If they were going to get one more race out of him, I highly doubt that they would have chosen the Tampa Bay Derby.

i can't believe someone thinks they would run a horse the likes of war pass one more time because he was 'done'. what kind of logic is that? oh, he's done...le's take a shot in the tampa bay derby. oh please.
i think it was more a case of he seems fine, so let's continue with our plans. zito is a successful trainer, he knows what he's doing, and he knows the horse. he thought war pass was fine, and really no way of knowing what would happen til it did. this sunday morning training is pretty dammed laughable.

Unless we all know the condition of the horses all you are doing is speculating on an unknown.

I guess horse racing fans don't mind being kept in the dark about the athletes.

oh, sure...beat me to the punch.

btw, lapenta says they are unsure now about going to the wood.

I just hope he's OK. It would suck not having War Pass in the Derby...

The owner said that War Pass was sick. Based on how he ran yesterday, I'm sure he wasn't 100% and they [War Pass's connections; Zito, owner, etc.] knew it [that he wasn't 100%]. [My current views of Zito] It wasn't so much that they [the connections] ran him [War Pass] when he was not 100%. [My views about Zito] It was more of the fact that they ran a GI horse [War Pass] in a GIII race that really doesn't matter that much when the horse wasn't 100%. The KD should be the goal for this horse, and is only two months away. If the Tampa Bay Derby would have been an important GI or the goal for this horse, and they raced War Pass when he wasn't 100% anyway [in a GI race], then my views [about Zito] would be different.

Zito and the connections probably have some deeper motive for racing War Pass yesterday if he wasn't 100% though. I said those statements earlier prematurely out of frustration. I will give him the benefit of the doubt, but I have seen him make moves before that were questionable. Every trainer does though. Maybe the horse was done, they knew it, and were trying to get one more race out of him. Maybe a breathing problem did surface. Maybe he just hated TBD and the trip. Who knows right now? I guess we'll find out. Hope the horse is ok.

How in God's green earth would your views be different? So you're OK with running sick horses as long as they're running in Grade 1's? This is hogwash.

I edited the post above.

Trainers do it all the time...run the horses when they are not 100%. It's just that the best trainers pick their spots very carefully when their best animals are not feeling well or 100%, or they don't race them at all. I would prefer the latter, but that is not realistic in horse racing. I cannot tell you the number of times that I have seen trainers run horses, and knew that the horses running weren't 100% before they went into the race. It happens every day. If trainers didn't race their horses when they weren't 100%, there would be alot fewer horses in races.

war pass didn't lose due to a fever. or due to shipping. or due to not liking the track, the bad break, the pinching back, the rankness, the change in racing style....
but all those things combined...

he's 5 and 1 in 6 starts. i'm not ready to stick a fork in him. but, the old 'what have you done for me lately' syndrome is alive and well.

[quote=Danzig] zito is a successful trainer, he knows what he's doing /QUOTE]

You can sell it,but after the 2005 Derby,I can't blame anyone for not buying it.He is "o.k." He is a successful trainer,but I wouldn't say he always knows what he is doing.He pretty much just threw everything against the wall that year,and none of it stuck.Didn't he think Noble Causeway was "just fine" when Bailey refused to ride him.

Have you ever actually been to the track? If you have this ability to determine a horses health to a certain degree before the race you are wasting your time in college. You could make millions betting against less than 100% favs.

Let me get this straight....

One race, the 2005 Kentucky Derby proves Zito doesn't always know what he's doing?

Zito got five horses to earn their way into the starting gate that year.

* Bellamy Road (Wood Memorial win)

* High Fly (Florida Derby win & Fountain of Youth win)

* Sun King (Tampa Derby win)

* Noble Causeway (Florida Derby 2nd place)

* Andromedia's Hero (Sam Davis win, Ark Derby 3rd place)

And because none of them hit the board "he doesn't know what he is doing" ?

[quote=DaHoss9698]Because people like you think he shits golden eggs.How can he not be successful when he gets what he gets? The guy is a good person,and has a great personality,and that will get you a long way.Lasorda was one of the worst strategic managers ever,but he could get people to go to war for a cause.

Let me get this straight.This trainer doesn't hit the board with 5 horses entered in the 2005 Kentucky Derby,but he knew what he was doing? Bailey refused to ride Noble Causeway,but Zito knew what he was doing? I CAN'T ARGUE WITH SOMEBODY WHO THINKS THIS PERSON KNEW WHAT HE WAS DOING.We will just have to agree to disagree.He is an "o.k." trainer.

At this point, I think that it is an insult to Zito to mention Lukas and him together. I would take Zito any day of the week over him.

This thread has spun wildly out of control.

Just because a trainer failed to hit the board in a horse race means they do not know what they're doing?

That's indeed out of control.

No,it means if you can't hit the board with 5 horses in the Kentucky Derby,then you probably didn't know what the fk you were doing at the time.Your quote above is what is scary(do try to distort that much is amazing,but I don't think anyone will ever take notice.)

When they race 5 horses? Yes,they didn't know wtf they were doing.That's pretty obvious.At some point,people have to be measured on their judgement and performance(like with any other job.) Nobody wants to judge famous people.

Well Jay,

If Pletcher was training this horse and Pletcher had him sick for a day or two and Pletcher ran him anyway because Pletcher knew he had to make the race to stay on the Derby Trail and if Pletcher ran the 2 yo champ and undefeated colt in this race and the horse finished last at 1-20, then Pletcher would certainly be taking heat.

Half the people here would be saying he was what is wrong with racing. And someone here, sure as hell, would be saying how Pletcher f'ked the betting public by not disclosing the horse's condition.

And you'd be among the first to muster up behind those leading that charge.

Aside from the adoration Zito gets on this message board that borders on zealous worship, he makes mistakes.

You lose badly at 1-20 with the undefeated 2 yo champ that fevered up during the week, you are going to take heat.

That's real life, son.

Let me get this straight.This trainer doesn't hit the board with 5 horses entered in the 2005 Kentucky Derby,but he knew what he was doing? Bailey refused to ride Noble Causeway,but Zito knew what he was doing?



By this scary logic, any trainer that hasn't won the Derby doesn't know what they are doing right?


I am gunna let this thread go now,but I will leave it with this fine distortion above.It's always gunna be a favorite of mine.

I am not gunna respond all afternoon to your crap.This is it...KAPUT

1)Yes,he can use LA PENTA'S money to buy derby level horses....Big deal..They outbid people.
2)If Pletcher put 5 horses in 1 derby,and none of them hit the board,then he didn't know wtf he was doing at the time.That would seem obvious.If ya want to hire trainers without measuring them by performance ,then be my guest. ..We have this KNAPP guy you would adore.

I am not reading the rest.So,I ain't ignoring you.I just ain't reading your waste anymore.Like a vet told me about a dog one time..."He is a poop machine."

War Pass only costed $180K. . . LaPenta doesn't have money like the sheiks or coolmore. . . He's definitely not outbidding them

LMAO.

As for your awful rating of Stew Elliott, why don't you tell me how he's been the last year going long?

I'll save you time. 31% wins. Ave price $8.05 And you laugh at me thinking he's among the best after Ramon on the inner just cause someone who pats your back and knows a few things thinks so.

And it ain't all tanks he rides for Assmussen. His average Assman mount pays over $2.50. They certainly are not all tanks. Hardly.

Between this and your lack of elementary knowedge of the Inner maiden races, it's a wonder how you get by.

Like a great man would ask... credibility anyone?

In the case of the weakened War Pass we know somebody screwed up. Either Zito or La Penta or both. We also know for sure that horse racing continues to deceive the public by not disclosing health issues surrounding the entrants to a race.

Umm. . . how do we know that?