Not only all of that, but don't forget that LIS had a greater chance of beating Zenyatta in the race formerly known as the Distaff than GP did in the Classic.

I can't remember, who trained that winner in the distaff again?

There is a wide chasm between truly great achievement and notable achievement. In my eyes and the eyes of others who have at least some sense of the history of the sport this streak that she has been on is a really nice accomplishment. However simply beating up on the same group of mediocre fillies in the same fairly non-descript stakes over a synthetic surface just isn't in the same league as true greatness. This and her previous campaigns were seemingly contrived with only keeping this inane streak alive by rarely venturing out of the comfort zone of the California filly division.

The fact that she is carrying a little bit of weight gives the race a little bit of intrigue but the opponents that she is beating are non-descript to be kind. What further turns me off is the idea that she will continue to race in the same rut of races in her next start. Despite the older male division being terrible save a few horses the past few years, she has avoided running against those horses with one notable exception. They run a race called the Pacific Classic at Del Mar. If they insist on staying in CA then why not take a shot in there? Instead they want to make "history" and try to become the first three time winner of the Clement Hirsh. Oh boy now that is something that we all will look back on fondly.

If there is one thing that turns off people in regards to athletics, it is when talent is seemingly wasted. By continuing to take the low road Zenyatta's connections are wasting a chance to do something really special. And if she runs 3rd or worse in the Breeders Cup then everybody will look back and say was she really all that? And that is the sad part. One bad race can tarnish her reputation because despite all the wins and accomplishments, she has only one time stepped out of the box and that race that she won looks worse and worse with each passing flop of those who ran behind her that day.

Even Lavaman had a shot at HOY if he won the Classic that year. They're taking a calculated risk that no horse will duplicate what RA did last year.

Not only do they want to keep "the streak" alive but the less wear and tear on her gives them the best chance to win the Classic.

Personally I think she'll lose this Sunday. If she does, maybe it will change their strategy.

It reminds me of the year Dave Winfield became a singles hitter to try to win the batting title....or Wilt the assist leader. Only in her case they have already done that and are going for it again. At least in their cases people understood it was the end of their careers.

Is Sheriffs so afraid of St. Trinians that he's running Zardana as a "rabbit" for Zenyatta in this race?

I don't think enough's being made of Zardana being added to this race. Since when did Zenyatta need a rabbit?

Wilt,dave Winfield,zenyatta ? C'mon What About Pete Rose, Johnny Bench, Mickey Mantle Or Carl Yastrzemski?

Really?
http://www.spiletta.com/UTHOF/drfager.html

"Dr. Fager wired the field and romped home with eight lengths of daylight behind him in the Whitney Stakes. Despite giving away eighteen poinds, Dr. Fager went to post at 1-20, a New York state record.

Dr. Fager's last three races were considered to be his finest efforts. He took the Washington Park Handicap by ten lengths, setting a new world record of 1:32 1/5 for a mile, despite a burden of 134 pounds. The previous recordholder, Buckpasser, had been carrying 125 pounds. It is for this performance that Dr. Fager is best remembered. Hedevar was among the defeated.

The next time out, he met Advocator, a classic placed son of Round Table, as well as two time Turf Champion, future Horse of the Year, and millionaire Fort Marcy, in the United Nations Handicap. It was Dr. Fager's first and only start on the turf, but he pulled off an impressively game victory, winning by a hard gained neck.

In Dr. Fager's final start, he topped of his career by carrying 139 pounds to a new seven furlong track record at Aqueduct. It was his second victory in the seven furlong Vosburgh Handicap. The half mile, with Kissin' George forcing the pace, flew by in :43 4/5. The time at the six furlong mark was 1:07 4/5, which broke the track record. The final time was 1:20 1/5, a full second faster than the previous track record and only a fifth off the world record. Dr. Fager had cemented his position in history."

Rabbit? What's a rabbit? SHE WORKED TOO FAST TO SHIP, FOOL. :rolleyes:

:tro:

People who bitch about Zenyatta carrying too much weight need to take a look at a history book. How much did Phar Lap carry and give in his day? Kelso? Spectacular Bid? If she's going to be considered by her fans to be an all time great, the horse needs to be treated like one.

what does this even mean? or how does it make sense?

Fair questions.
It makes no sense whatsoever.

those were great horses..she is exceptional for her time but as ateam said
you will never be in the same page as them with the continuation of the
poly program..race vs the same ones in your back yard..peppers pride #2

Because of Zenyatta's performances in the Breeders' Cup, these comparisons are really hyperbole. That being said, the manner in which her connections are campaigning her this year is truly disappointing and will tarnish her legacy if she is unable to pull off a BC Classic repeat.

She is the greatest synthetic track runner in the 5 year proliferation of synthetic tracks in the US. That's about all we can feel reasonably comfortable stating. Her place among the "greats" of racing in America just can't be confirmed with the evidence we have.

I really thought it was possible, and I don't think I'm alone in this. Others must have felt the same because the response to their staying at Del Mar this summer would have been far less if it were expected to begin with.

Honestly, I thought her first start would be in California followed by the Apple Blossom. From there, I really felt they would do something different. I expected them to run in the Hollywood Gold Cup. I thought they would find the middle ground between shipping East like they should, and staying home to race against the same fillies/mares by running there. But they did not.

When this year began, I was ready to give Zenyatta a fair shot provided they shipped around and had fun. But they aren't, and that stinks, and as a racing fan, I feel cheated.

I'm no huge fan of Zenyatta, but I really wish people would stop mentioning her in the same sentence with that New Mexico rat. Yeah, it wasn't a very good BCC field, and yeah it was on a synthetic surface, and yeah the "top-tier" Cali fillies and mares she has pounded most of her career aren't great, but come on. She has at least been running in G1 races where any filly and mare in the country could show up to run against her, and twice they have ventured out of the state in search of actual competition. Sure we'd all like to see them do that with her more often, but they deserve at least some credit for doing it on those occasions.
Comparing her to that record-holding slug who plugged along her entire career against bottom-tier talent - even if it is just to make a point about beating up on the same competition - really just seems unfair.

They deserve nothing but derision. F.uck them.

could it be that people are tired of hearing how fng great she is..if you have the tvg network you will hear at nausium ' i broke out my police album' whats the name of that one todd.. zenyatta m..they act as though she is the best horse in training..she is not..her accompishments will allways have an * next to it..period.

The reasoning behind her linkage with the New Mexico "rat" is posts like a few in this thread that proclaim her greatness and historic achievement by using the streak as evidence. Obviously they are two different brands of horse but the fact is that if the streak is going to be held up as her standard of greatness, then the "rat" is going to be involved in the conversation. I think your post is telling in two places where you mention her running in grade 1's and her two ventures out of the state as being in search of actual competition. That is my entire point. She is an exceptional horse who hasn't really done anything exceptional except maintain an undefeated streak. While that IS an accomplishment in itself, let's not confuse that with them searching out the best competition. They have in virtually every case chosen the path of least resistance. They are chosing to roll the dice by making the BC Classic at CD the entire season. It really becomes a make or break race for her and she really doesn't deserve that. The fact that RA and Zenyatta have never met or really probably never will meet is proof being a "sportsman" ain't what it used to be. John Nerud they aren't.

There is a difference in logistics when comparing east coast racing to west coast. Major stables in the east will move from Belmont in the fall to Gulfstream in the winter to Kentucky in the spring, where the big money races are.

In California there isn't a track within 2,000 miles other than Oaklawn that provides the purse money that California does.

Shirreffs isn't the only trainer staying at home where purse money is as lucrative as anywhere else. There are countless stables in the east who have graded synthetic winners staying in the east because it makes no sense to ship to California when there are races at home that offer the same money. The only difference is that Shirreffs has the highest profile horse in training.

I realize he's ducking males in California and elsewhere and I understand why.

He holds the cards. If there is a filly or mare good enough to beat Zenyatta then come out to California and prove it. She continues to defeat mediocre competition because 75% of the best synthetic fillies are staying home back east. Shirreffs is making no more of an exception in regards to shipping Zenyatta than he has done with any of his horses.

The bottom line is that Zenyatta is owned and trained in California. Is it fair to the horse and fans that they are choosing the easy road ? Of course not. If Zenyatta was trained by (fill in the blank) back east she would be running the majority of her races in New York. Would anyone expect an east coast trainer to seek out the best horses in California ?

Exactly. The streak is meaningless to me if she's just beating the same horses at the same tracks over and over. Hell, I'd prefer a horse like Perfect Drift to her. He lost a lot, but he danced every dance and consistently ran well and that means more to me than some stupid streak against soft competition.

I'd love to have both in my stable.

Chuck hit the nail on the head and certainly summed up the way I feel about Zenyatta and this recent announcement. As has been brought up numerous times here before, it isn't necessarily staying in CA that is the biggest problem with their plan, it's staying in CA and facing females.

NT

Again with this? As Coach said, I'd love to own the Yankees too, it doesn't mean I have to be a fan no matter what they do.

As an aside, PD earned $4,714,212 with the immortal Murray Johnson as his trainer. That alone should qualify him for the HOF.

I was definitely being tongue in cheek... nothing makes me want to pull my hair out more as when people say, "Oh, that's a horse I wouldn't turn down for my stable."

In all seriousness, Perfect Drift was a lot of fun to watch. His Whitney stretch-drive with Roses In May was awesome.

Not if you bet on him.

NT

I tend to agree. And it's still early in the season if you're planning to make it to the Breeder's Cup. I think I'll hold judgement on Z's campaign until it's complete but I'm sure hoping she'll see real dirt or face the boys at least once before the Classic.

C'mon stop using the West coast based excuse. This isn't 1975. Horses fly all over the world to compete and where she is based in the Winter has no bearing on what they are doing. I understand as well as anyone that there are always other factors that aren't known to the public when deciding where and when to run horses. But that being said they are working on their third campaign with virtually no variance between them. This isn't a claiming horse we are talking about. And many east coast trainers ship horses west to run in stakes, even conservative types like Clement.

It is their horse. They can do anything they want with her. But what they are doing is a disservice to both the horse and the game. Imagine in 2010 a horse that is supposedly considered one of the all time greats that never competed at Saratoga, or Belmont or Monmouth, or Churchill Downs or Keeneland? That ran on synthetics her whole career with two exceptions (same track, same race)? If they are going to duck RA then you would think they would try something really out of the box like a turf race such as the Arlington Million? You know like Secretariat did a few times? or Dr Fager? Hell even Mr. Sportsman tried the turf with Curlin once. The same old races, the same old competition. Why can't she ship in to run in the Fleur de Lis? Or at least threaten to and stir up ol Jess? Because they care more about some meaningless winning streak and keeping that intact as some kind of medal of valor. Or because she isn't doing that great as some have alluded to.

But I hate to tell them that she ain't leading on the judges cards 1/2 way through the fight. Dancing around shouldn't win them points (yet with the state of eclipse voters, most of whom shouldn't be allowed to vote for town dogcatcher let alone year end awards, who knows). Quality Road is and his lead may be insurmountable enough by November that he may skip the BC as the leader in the clubhouse.

I agree with most of what you say here, and the absurd praise heaped on the horse by her legion of fans/worshipers grates on my nerves as well. Basically I'm saying that I think her level of competition IS pretty darn low, and so I'm not sure it really needs to be exaggerated in any way by her detractors. I just think that her streak is so infinitely more impressive than freakin' Pepper's Pride's that the comparison is a bit foolish. While the races Zenyatta has been running in have certainly lacked top-quality competition, they haven't been restricted to only crappy competition the way Pepper's Pride were.
I'm not trying to argue that the connections deserve a lot of praise for running the horse in the Apple Blossom twice, I am merely saying that I do think they deserve some amount of credit for it. In what was supposed to be the biggest race of the year this year, they showed up while the other guys didn't. Does that make them great "sportsmen?" No. But it seems like some on here argue as if those two trips to Oaklawn never happened in a rush to denigrate her level of competition. Again, I don't see why that is necessary. Most of the time the connections certainly have played it safe, but they did go to Oaklawn twice to take on Ginger Punch and Rachel Alexandra, and at least in those two instances, they weren't playing it safe. I certainly understand the urge to tear the mare down given how annoying most of Zenyatta's fans are around here, but I guess I am still trying to enjoy her career despite her fans' idiocy and the softness of her competition.

You realize that if Zenyatta had got beat a nose at Del mar last year everything would probably be so much different?

I can't get over the fact that we have these two great mares with connections that don't seem to care for each other and yet it seems as though we will never see them meet up. The game has a lot bigger issues than these horses choice of races but it is just a shame that this cant happen. Like Stasberg it might actually be a hyped event that lives up to its billing

But no we have to hear about fear of flying over mountains and absurd fitness levels...

who is afraid to fly over mountains?

J Sheriffs

Jess Jackson, would not take them on last year, or this year for that matter.

"For us to ship, it's so much different," Shirreffs said. "We have to ship across the Rockies. It's so much different out here than going up and down the East Coast."

http://sports.espn.go.com/sports/hor...ory?id=5136087

Please.

They are both equally lame.

That's beyond absurd.

I don't disagree with any of what you said above. I wasn't trying to make excuses for their choice of schedule,I was only pointing out the reality of the situation. She is their horse and they have no obligation to anyone to run her against males or to ship her anywhere they feel would not be in the best interest of their long term goal.

If she stays healthy and continues the easy pickins schedule she will give it one shot at Churchill Downs in November,on dirt, and against males. If she does not win HOY shame on them.

I beleive thier sole purpose for bring Zenyatta out of retirement was to track down and beat the HOY, then Zardena did it for them.