this is really off the mark. regardless of what got graded when and how, you can't argue with the field that shows up for the ky oaks each year. it certainly seems more of a draw than the coaching club or alabama. history isn't something to ignore, but you can't ignore how things have changed in the modern era.

It's a no-brainer ... for people who are high on crack.

Granted, enough of the lemmings will likely vote for the Alexander filly to put her over the top for the HotY award … but there's no doubt as to which was the superior animal this year.


Does anyone actually believe that that 3yo filly could've held off the 5yo monster mare in a two-turn 9 or 10f affair on a fair dirt surface???

If so, you really need to step away from Jersey boy's bong for a while…

I don't understand why people just assume what would happen. A dirt surface would play more favorably to Rachel's running style, therefore she'd have a better chance. Not saying for sure she'd win, but it would be a close race.

People are letting their emotions get away with Zenyatta's Classic win. She's not invincible. Maybe she can run 112 beyers, but Rachel has proven herself capable of those numbers on a dirt track already.

When healthy horses are held out of world-class championship events we have no choice but to make assumptions, letswastemoney.


Unfortunately, despite her impressive achievements, RA never proved that she could handle a horse of Z's quality … or that she could stay the classic 10f distance.

Z was older and stronger and likely would've gotten to RA … even on a dry dirt surface, imo.

And I don't believe people are "letting their emotions get away" with Z. Her Classic was a powerful, impressive performance by any objective measure.

Wait, assumptions other than the one where her new owner said there was no way, no how, he was going to run her there? They were dodging nothing, they didn't want to run on a surface that is patently unkind to dirt horses...the classic type their star runner is.

And there is nothing to say Rachel wouldn't get 10f at all, which is a favorite trope of the Rachel bashers, but there's still little to even remotely think she couldn't get the distance.

Cue the Woodward with 9f scenarios infused into a 10f race responses.

It's really boring, for Christ's sake.

Lol … did the "new owner" conveniently forget about the race she won at Keeneland, spencer?

The guy made a BUSH-LEAGUE call to skip the championship event and I'd love to see it bite him in the ass.


And yeah, she can get 10 panels … hell, any horse can run that far. Question is … could she get the classic distance with a high-quality router like Z breathing down her throat in the lane?

HIGHLY unlikely, in my estimation…

Cigar won a turf race or maybe two. Doesn't mean it was the right surface for him though. No one ever penalized Cigar for being only a dirt horse.

Do you pay even the minimum amount of attention to understand that not every synthetic surface operates the same, Smooth?

I'd be more than willing to take a frontrunner to Keeneland under the right circumstances...why anyone would take one to Santa Anita is beyond me.

The guy made a perfect call given his runner's style and affinity for a certain surface, and the fact that he decided to skip the BC has no more bearing on his charge's talents than does the fact that they skipped the Beverly D. on the lawn this summer. More succinctly, he wants his dirt horse to run on dirt...where dirt horses run. Not on the turf, not on Pro-Ride, which plays just like turf and nothing like dirt, which is why you saw the best Grade I turf field assembled all year for the biggest "dirt" race of the year. Please.

no effect on talent correct, but maybe should have an affect on an Eclipse Award?

Totally agree with this statement, though he played a little gamble when it came to the Eclipse Awards. He skipped the championship event and gambled that Zenyatta would not be good enough to win the classic (and lets face it just about ever pro capper was on his side on that call).

Now its a closer race. No way a east coast horse does not get the edge here, the media is in the east so that will be way to much for Zenyatta to overcome in a ballot deal.

Rachel's easing back into training. Let's play a game of 'spot the amusing typo' shall we? http://www.ntra.com/content.aspx?type=news&id=43558

What's the timeline for HOY ballots going out and being due? I know somebody said the deadline awhile back but I can't remember.

Is it fair to say that the Clark supports Zenyatta's case a litte bit? Just a little bit?

How? Einstein threw in a spectacular clunker at SA. It's hardly indicative of the quality of that field, and it says more that he's a better horse than he showed in the BCC.

Okay, but what does this race say about those horses that were in the woodward?

Their connections should have taken Jess Jackson's cue, and gave their horses a break?

Perhaps. Or perhaps it reinforces the notion that the older horses Rachel beat in the woodward were garbage.

Possibly. I certainly wouldn't try to compare them to Awesome Gem or Colonel John.

You know, the good older horses.

LOL. Touche.

She certainly didnt beat anything on the level of Einstein. Is that fair to say?

Not if you just watched a replay of the Stephen Foster.

Arguably neither did Zenyatta, given what Einstein turned in BC day. Macho Again and Bullsbay were probably in their top form for the Woodward. At least part of the facing solid older males, whatever the gender of the 3yo, is dealing with the mental pressure. I'm not altogether sure RA didn't realize these were tough experienced horses and that she decided to handle them anyway. I hate implying Z wouldn't have beaten them in the same form that RA did, because both of them had the ability. RA fought past an obstacle that Z didn't the opportunity to match, not really Z's fault.

I actually think Gio Ponte is a quality horse on either surface, and ran his race.

Nothing.

What is driving me nuts in the entire debate is no one takes into consideration the dynamics of pace. Pace can make any horse look good, or bad.

Does anyone really think Dare and Go was better than Cigar? Of course not, but the pace killed Cigar. Only truly amazing superstars, of which we've probably only seen one in the past decade, can overcome it.

As for the Woodward, Macho Again, regardless of how he finished in the Clark, was a good horse at Saratoga this summer. He was given the Woodward trophy on a platter when they turned for home and he still couldn't grab it. For Rachel to be pressured and pressed like she was and still find enough to hold-on late is remarkable.

The Clark says nothing to the Horse of the Year debate. It is a non-starter when you consider the dynamics, which no one seems to want to do.

Was the pace of the clark particularly slow? I didn't think so. They ran a 47 and 3 half. Regardless of time, it was pretty well contested and two horses that were on the lead finished dead last and second to last and one of those horses was a top betting choice. Einstein managed to rally from the clouds to get a minor share.

Saying that Macho again was a "good horse at saratoga this summer" seems like you are implying that Macho Again particularly relishes that track. In fact, Bullsbay and Macho Again both had done very well previously at churchill downs.

So what happened to the second and third place finishers of the woodward in this race?

What happened to Holy Bull in the Fountain of Youth? What happened to Afleet Alex in the Rebel? What happened to Point Given in the Derby?

Horses come in and out of form. They don't always show their best every time out. Why does a horse's previous races become moot just because its latest was below par?

If we were talking about just ONE horse it would be one thing but we are talking about two. Were they both simply off form?

That didn't seem to be what Travis was implying at all. It in no way means Macho Again's only good at Saratoga. What I believe several of us are saying (including Steve if I'm remembering my At the Races well--please correct me if I'm wrong Steve) is that at this time in their seasons, Macho Again and Bullsbay had form that was strong and moving up. RA caught them when they'd be most primed this year to give her a tussle and she still beat them.

Of course, as usual, Haskin says it best: http://cs.bloodhorse.com/blogs/horse...he-rescue.aspx

Didn't Bullsbay battle a foot abscess (after stepping on a shard of metal) leading up to the BC Mile? He ran horrible there, yet had previous synthetic form (albeit not at the top level). Why would he necessarily turn it around when shipped back and wheeled back in the Clark?

Didn't Macho Again bow out of the BC Classic with a cough? Didn't he miss a couple of works the previous month?

Does any of this suggest they would bring their A-games to the race?

Not to mention, they've both been running since last winter without much of a breather.

Well they weren't the only two horses that have lost form. They're simply the two people are determined to argue about at this moment. I'm sure if we did a roll call we'd find a few hundred others at least that went off form since September. None of whom faced RA or Zenyatta but just to illustrate the point that sure, shocking as it is, two horses might be off form at the same time. You could say Einstein is too. Curlin was last year. Not everybody is a freaky end-of-yearer like Conduit. Some get injured at the same time. How dare Macho Again not ask Bullsbay for permission before he had a problem. Everybody knows you take turns.

So the trainers of Macho Again and Bullsbay had their respective charges primed for their best efforts in...The woodward? Really? No disrespect Merlinsky but thats laughable.

Lets face it-neither horse is very good. We want to heap huge praise on the filly for holding these two horses off and she deserves a measure of credit for doing that. Lets not pretend though that those horses are something they arent. Yesterday seemed to back up that point.

:tro:

I was not aware that either was battling issues. If that is indeed the case, it would be plausible that they looked worse yesterday than they had earlier in the year.

So they're not good because they lost yesterday?

Macho Again had a very good year by today's standards. He won a Grade II, a Grade I, and placed in two other GIs. Bullsbay had a good year himself.

Whether Macho Again or Bullsbay's form was off yesterday probably had little to do with whether their trainer's had their horses primed. Don't give Macho's trainer that much credit. They were both in career-best form this summer and Rachel faced them at the top of their game. If you want to argue that the top of their game is not much then that's a different issue.

NT

And thats basically what i mean. Those horses simply arent that good.

Their trainers might not've done it on purpose, but that's when the horses were at their best. Not everyone expects to win the BCC so they look at another G1, or maybe they think it'll get even better and the horse isn't even primed yet. Looking back on their year it was obvious this was their top. As I said, Haskin seemed to think it too so I don't feel particularly silly in my assertion. Nobody said they're Secretariat, but they were feeling their best and that best was dangerous against the average or even above average 3yo filly. RA was obviously much better than that.

And that begs the question then who did Zenyatta beat that was that good in the Classic?

Gio Ponti- A turf horse who was able to transfer his form to synthetics but was well beaten in his last synthetic start prior to the BC.

Twice Over- Ditto GP without the prior synthetic stuff.

Summer Bird- Dirt horse.

Colonel John- Good horse? Not in my opinion.

Richard's Kid- A dirt joke who got good on synthetics but was coming off a loss to a bad B-list Euro.

Awesome Gem- Dirt horse and a mediocre one at that.

Regal Ransom- Dirt horse.

Mine That Bird- Dirt horse who particularly hated the Pro-Ride and was off form on BC day.

Rip Van Winkle- Turf horse who had feet problems that reared their ugly head prior to the BC.

Einstein- Good horse who was plagued by a bad trip.

Girolamo- Dirt horse.

The only other horse that Zenyatta beat this year that's even worth discussing is Life Is Sweet, who benefited from a tremendous pace setup on her favorite track to win the Distaff.

NT

LOL ... Do you remember what happened in last year's BCC, NTamm1215 … when those two Euros came to Southern Cal and made Curlin look like some overmatched allowance runner?

Twice Over took a 10f G1 in Britain this season ... and beat BCC champion Raven's Pass in a G3 mile last season.

This was a VERY classy 4yo colt which ran his race at Anita ... but still was no match for Z.

This alone speaks volumes about her ability.

And Rip Van Winkle looks like the classic Euro miler, but he still managed to get within a length of superhorse Sea The Stars in a 10f G1 this season.


At any rate, that BCC field was FAR better than anything RA faced this year.


To deny the great undefeated champion mare Zenyatta a HotY award would be an absolute disgrace for the sport, in my opinion...

Nick Zito weighs in: http://blog.timesunion.com/horseraci...lexandra/3700/

Of course the calls of 'he's a NY trainer, and we all know he hates synthetic, of course he's biased' are bound to come in. Pretend I already pointed that out (oops no need to pretend) and proceed onward in the discussion.

I can't find where someone mentioned the DRF poll on HOY and said Z was ahead by a 2 to 1 margin. I checked it out again having voted awhile back and frankly given that it's a popular poll with easy-to-do ballot stuffing means any fan with time on their hands (apparently a lot of us) can dig in and puff up whoever they want. A NY Times poll had RA ahead awhile back (it's got RA with 69%). I'm glad this is not by popular vote cuz sorry, Barbaro didn't technically deserve HOY and you know he'd have gotten it. Maybe a 'fan favorite' Eclipse could alleviate some of that pressure.

Yes, obviously Rip Van Winkle ran the exact same race in the BCClassic as he did against Sea The Stars earlier this year.

And it is so hilarious that Einstein flatters Zenyatta now? I mean the BCClassic was obviously Einsteins best race Evah.

I just dont get it!

Given what happened last year, the two Euros were the real threats going into the contest, Antitrust32.

Turned out Rip didn't want that extra distance, though … looks like he's better suited for eight.

TO proved legit, but simply couldn't hang with the monster mare in the lane.

That place horse is a nice animal too.


At any rate, you just can't give the big prize to a young horse when you have an undefeated champion older horse which took on all comers and prevailed impressively in the biggest unrestricted race of the year. It's just wrong.

But they're gunna make the same mistake they did in '97 when they gave it to some overhyped, overrated 2yo instead of one of those talented older beasts.

Almost did it again in '04 when that 3yo (SJ) which only ever raced against mediocre colts his own age got way too many votes.

Don't get me wrong, the Alexander filly is clearly a quality animal, but she never proved that she could handle the level of competition that Z whipped in the Classic … not even close.

i will admit that gio and twice over are better horses than anything Rachel faced. well they are better turf horses, we have no idea how gio or twice over would do on the dirt... and thats the thing.. Rachel is a dirt horse, why is she supposed to run in a non dirt race that is basically the same as turf?

Zenyatta ran an incredible RACE.. she deserves awards & accolades.
Rachel had an incredible YEAR.. The best YEAR of any horse running in the USA (Gio had a great year also but not like Rachel). She deserves horse of the YEAR.

Though I'm completely cool with both horses sharing HOY, if that is possible it should happen this year.

If the Classic means everything then why wasn't Ravens Pass HOY last year? I believe he whooped up the eventual HOY in that race too! I think because Curlin had the better YEAR and RP had the better 1 race.
And it will not be a mistake WHEN they give RA HOY