And set the track record at Tampa

LOL, the Tampa Bay Derby and I'm a thoro lemming. Jeez, why does anyone make a call on here...A nose, no less. Hope you bet him. A juicy 6/5 today.

As did Any Given Saturday. 20 claimers were 7 lengths off that pace. Same distance. Let's see the variant....Easy, if it was a negative number, I'm already wrong and will happily admit it.

Street Sense did get a great trip. Any Given Saturday ran a hell of a race. It was a great show. Both of these horses look plenty good to me. I hold by my call on the monsters, Street Sense and Nobiz.

Jerry Bailey seemed really concerned Street Sense ran too hard. Did he see him get injured? Did they not say they wanted a tiring run in the sand. He got it.

It just seems to strange to stand by your claim that he is "finished" after the race today (or before it for that matter).
Does that mean he is going to be champion 3yo? No, but there is a lot of area between champion and "finished". Today he won a graded stakes race, in a quality time, and beat a fairly legitimate horse in the process. To me, that isn't a horse that is done. Will he ever win another G1 by 10 lengths like he did last November? Maybe not, but he could still be a very good horse, which I think he demonstrated today.

I don't think your last 2 sentences are compelling. You can believe in Thoro figs without thinking that Street Sense was/is through. He ran a fine race today and deserves to be considered among the top Derby contenders at this point.

Sure he may fall by the wayside. There's probably still at least a 25% chance that ANY horse you name will fall by the wayside before the Derby. There wasn't anything to not like about his run today, though.

If you truly believe he has no chance in the Derby, you will have a good chance to capitalize on that when Pool 3 of the Future Wager comes out. I suspect Street Sense will have enough or almost enough money bet on him to make up for the entire track take.

--Dunbar

100% right, in which case I am dead wrong. Maybe finished was a strong word. In the golden rail thread I said I thought he could win this race...But we'll see. Any Given Saturday impressed more but Street Sense definitely was good today, better than I thought he'd come back out of the gate.

I actually agree with you. The horse had front wraps on again today, and they are "most likely" trying to squeeze a couple of more races out of the horse. I like the Pletcher colt better for this reason.

Well, something obviously isn't right with the horse to be starting this late in the year whether or not the connections said that they had always planned on starting the horse this late. You don't start a legitimate Derby contender in the middle of March unless something is wrong. Plus, the connections said that they were having "growing" problems with the horse anyway yet they also said that the horse hadn't grew any taller or more muscular...

This could be the harshest post Randall has been forced to endure.

Really, folks, no piling on!

People have lost their minds when it comes to training and racing thoroughbreds.

Now there is a qualified opinion. First start of the year, track record, and nobody here yet knows how he came out of the race. I didn't hear anyone talk about "he wouldn't have blown out a match" or "he was absolutely exhausted coming back" or anything of the like.

I think last year's # in the BC is irrelevant. Prediciting what kind of 3yo year this colt would have, based upon that #, without knowing anything about how he was coming back, seeing works, etc. is nothing more than a statistical prediction. Put whatever faith in the # you want to as far as I am concerned.

I think Bailey's supposed "concern" could be a valid one, but again, it's absent of all important info, facts and the like.

Eric

Looked Pretty Good To Me
 

Street Sense looked pretty good to me. Am i missing something here? First time off a long layoff and probably will move forward by the time he hits the Ky Derby given that Carl is his trainer.

Anyway, it was a great horse race and i was impressed by both horses today. Right now they would have to be #1 and #1A for contenders for the Ky Derby.

I assume that both will be able to get the distance of 1 1/4 miles, although that is obviously unknown as it is for everyone else.

I also assume that any trainer would take either one of these to run in the Derby.

Only question is that in the Derby Calvin Borel might not have the luxury of running up the rail like he did the last two races and save all of that ground...

PSH

The babying of horses, especially ones with immense talent, is such a negative I don't even know where to start. One trend that has been done away with for no good reason is starting a horse's season off with a sprint race. I have no idea why this has become a bad thing except for trainers/owners wanting to keep horses from losing. Of course after any losing race in the months of Jan thru April we get a steady dose of " we really dont need to win this...this is just a stepping stone...we dont want to kill him before the big day..." I dont know why I am so ornery tonight. Sorry.:mad:

I hear you Chuck, but doesn't all that play into people wanting a horse to "peak" so to speak? Maybe it's two sides of the same coin, or maybe it's BS, LOL.


Eric

Whatever happened to good horses running fast? I guess that was before EPO.

Well in an effort to help Randall out here, I will mention that on November 7th, after loving him going into the BC, I decided that Street Sense would be the horse to break the Juvenile/Derby jinx on my blog. Definitively.

So obviously I don't think he's "finished," and it seems nobody but Randall thinks he truly is. I was thrilled with his race today, to be honest. With only two preps, a dogfight in one doesn't seem like it's going to kill him, especially in his first race back.

It showed a side of him that I think was key to see at this point - that first off the layoff against a horse who many have ranked in their top 8, he dug in when he was tired and managed to pull out a win.

I couldn't be happier with today's race.

You can't have good horses running a lot of fast races in a row or they are sure to bounce :rolleyes:.
For example back in 1973 Lucien Lauren had some colt that ran huge in the Derby and Preakness. It was way too fast. I don't know whatever happened to him, but I am sure that he had bounced in his next start and probably lost.

You cant get a horse to "peak" on a particular day. It's crap. Who in recent years "peaked" before the Derby and blew it? Trainers can not control how their horse matures and gets better or doesn't. As I said in another thread, they undertrain and race them and that is a leading cause of so many young, developing horses getting hurt. And if I had a really talented horse and tried to do it a different way, I'm sure that I would hear all the naysayers tell me how I was a Derby rookie and dont know what I'm doing. The pressure that Pletcher puts on the rest of the trainers is immense because so many of the dopes that own horses cant seem to understand that his methods work because of the horses not because of the methods. Of course he has won as many Derbies as the rest of us on this board.

EPO is so 90's. It's like the stock market, by the time you hear about it, it is probably old news.

Yes, but it was the beginning of the explosion of " not so good horses running fast for a start or two ".

Very true.

Breaks the track recordand he is knocked for running so good and he wins only because he had the rail. What a bunch of crap. This horse is so good he makes his trip. If the rail gave him the win, why didnt AGS take it he was in front of SS and chose to go outside. Borel knew he had the horse to take the lane and win. Why do some just keep on knocking this horse when he performs.

I love Street Sense, and was thrilled with his race today ( though Any Given Sunday was just as well ), but I am a little concerned that he's a " rail runner " in that his two very big efforts came by running up the fence. As someone mentioned earlier, he isn't likely to get that trip in the Derby, and perhaps he's one of those horses that runs his best when inside.

Not a knock...just a thought.

This is a very good point. He used to have more tactical speed but seems more effective as a one run closer. And we know how much luck they need to get things to break their way in the Derby scramble.

Would you say Bellamy Road ran too good of a race in the Wood to come back and duplicate that performance in the Derby? A horse that blew his engine too early to me was Brother derek..Just my opinion of course

Maybe he did but how could you prevent that from happening?
Brother Derek had an easy road to the Derby. A bunch of paceless races in his own back yard against far from talented competition. Plus he got a pretty brutal trip in the Derby.

And if he draws inside with that one run, his connections can kiss their Derby goodbye. And that would be horribly disappointing for this runner. I was elated today when he nosed on ahead of Pletcher's, AGS. I always am when someone, anyone . . . does.

4 horse fields dont produce a Derby winner

You cant. They are going to run the way they know how to. Do you believe in the hooplah about stewie elliot taking it too hard on Smarty in the Preakness?? This in turn, not leaving Smarty with not much in the tank for the Belmont.. I dont give that any credence but a couple of buddies of mine do..I respect your opinion on horses and the industry as a whole, a great deal..

I thought that both he and Santos on Funny Cide may have gotten a little carried away in the stretch of the Preakness but it is impossible to determine if it had any effect in the Belmont. I think that in many cases what the rider is doing has little effect on the speed of horses once they are going full speed. But in these cases in deep stretch of taxing races on short rest, I would rather see the jockey take it easy rather than drive them to the wire. Things like this and the arguments that occur because of them are what makes racing interesting. Of course the fact that they may give you a lot of money after the race makes it pretty good also.

I was thrilled with him today too. I'm going to enjoy seeing Nafzger getting this horse to the Derby. This is a fascinating exercise of horsemanship combined with a horse with actual talent and guts. Not trying to squeeze blood from a turnip like we've seen from some or a trainer with a talented horse that had no heart or was a head case. Usually they lack some tool don't they? Either in the trainer or the horse.

I'm not going to be critical about this rail thing. I think Street Sense was determined to gut this one out so why make it harder on him than you have to? Better that it happened now than the next race really. If the rail's sitting right there for the taking in a prep race, what's Borel supposed to do? Go outside when he doesn't have to just to prove a point? If it's the shortest way around and isn't obviously going to be too dead to help you, I just think it'd be kinda goofy to not take it. If he'd lost by a half length or something and been taken the long way we'd all be grumbling that he would've done better if he'd gone to the inside. The horse was obviously going to work hard regardless of where he was placed because he was determined to keep trying. It tells me if they can keep him from getting too over the top he'll be really gunning for it at the end of the Derby, just when you need it, plus he doesn't need to have a huge clear path to do it.

I think you are missing my point, and it's not an absolute one, but at least a possibility.

Some horses are " rail runners " which effectively means they basically need to be on the rail to do their best running and will sort of sulk if they aren't on the fence. The converse is that some horses don't like being inside, and run inside as if they are effectively " chicken ", and won't pass horses on the inside. Since the two big efforts we have seen from Street Sense have come while rallying on the rail I am offering this as at least a possibility.

Oh I get what you mean, I just don't know that I would draw this conclusion with any level of confidence. Some folks grumbled that he might be a one run closer or are afraid he's a rail horse but quite simply until they do otherwise you don't know and why complain when a jockey does what makes sense? It's like we're trying to find flaws here--he saved too much ground, he's too fast, he's too gutsy... oh heaven forbid. He didn't need more than one run today so how could we know he wasn't capable of more than that (he's been tactical in the past right?) and he didn't need to go to the outside a mere two times in succession and months apart which doesn't really indicate a trend necessarily. Should we really think of what could just be coincidence as a weakness yet?

The rail's the shortest way around, can you blame Borel for taking it? I don't think Street Sense is likely to sulk but that's just my opinion. He seemed to take it personally that he was being challenged. I think if he sees a horse up ahead and he's on the outside, he'll be busting his tail to get there. At least we won't have to listen to 'was never looked in the eye' comments.

I didn't draw any conclusions.....I just offered a possibility. One thing is for sure, his two best efforts have come while making inside runs, which is rarer than most people think. It isn't a question of the shortest route to the wire, as many horses are far more comfortable rallying outside of horses, and that is seemingly not the case with Street Sense. At the very least he is comfortable regardless of racetrack position. However, the ease with which he rallies inside, suggests he is VERY comfortable there.

My post wasn't a stance on Street Sense but an observation about how he achieved his two strongest results. In general, I think the " rail is the shortest route to the wire " concept is as deceptive a way of thinking as I know in racing. It is quite simply a misconception of race dynamics.