Riverfront stadium doesnt' exist. IT was demolished.

So no team should ever fire a coach that continually produces mediocrity because the Steelers weren't retarded enough to fire Noll (Super Bowl wins in his 6th and 7th seasons), Cowher (SB appearance in his 4th season) or Tomlin (SB win in his 2nd season). Well reasoned.

He did work for Mike Brown? What the hell does that mean?

2 playoff appearances in 7 years is a bonanza of success in Cincy for Mike Brown after 12 years of zero. One man's mediocrity isn't anothers.

Mike Brown is not highly thought of in Cincinnati as being an acute NFL owner.

Anyone can get fired. I honestly don't care. I just like to defend Marvin Lewis is all. I'm not a giant fan of coaches too much. I'm not sure firing coaches is the be all and end all for a franchise's success. Sometimes it might be better to hang on to them longer than you might think you should.

Which is why the fans should be entitled to a refund if Lewis comes back. They've had mediocrity and I'm sure they realize it isn't much of an improvement over sucking.

Horseofcouse,

I think that this is an uphill battle. I think Marvin Lewis is a mediocrity at best. You can only blame the small market thing for so long. Good coaches overcome those disadvantages if given that much time. No?

Isn't there a pattern when it comes to good coaches or bad ones for that matter? And I do agree that some of it has a great deal to do with luck.

You mentioned Marty Schottenheimer. Isn't it crazy what his record has been everywhere he goes? Markets don't get much smaller than cleveland, san diego and KC. Contender in each stop?

What would Marty Schottenheimer do with this Cincy team? You know the answer.

Choke in the playoffs! ;)

I'll put up one more fact. I got abused for comparing Lewis to Cowher so I'll compare him to Wyche. In 1991 Wyche was completing his 8th season as head coach of the Bengals. He had a record of 61-66 and was coming off a 3-13 season. He had made the playoffs two times. His first time he went to the Super Bowl as his starting qb didn't tear up his knee on his first post season pass that year. He lost his first playoff game in his 7th season as head coach at home. So did Lewis.

Through 8 seasons, Wyche 61-66, Lewis 60-66-1

Playoff appearances, Wyche 2, Lewis 2

Playoff wins, Wyche 2, Lewis 0

They decided to fire Wyche, the mediocrity...it got worse...much, much worse for the Bengals until they hired their next mediocrity, Marvin Lewis. The Bengals had 7 playoff appearances in their first 35 years. Marvin's 2 in 8 is ahead of the curve.

Maybe these aren't facts. I consider them facts. firing the mediocrity can produce much, much worse results than the mediocrity.

And mediocrity is good in Cincy. I refer you to my above post. 4 playoff appearances in 16 years with the mediocrities...in between the two mediocrities for 11 years....zero and zero winning seasons. I think Schottenheimer would lose in Cincy. He's getting old.

Or it can produce much better. There's always a risk when you fire a coach. But it's a move you have to make unless perpetual mediocrity is good enough for you.

yes, the Browns couldn't get to the Super Bowl with Schottenheimer...4 years, 4 playoff appearances, 2 AFC championship games...not good enough. gotta make that next step, yes we do. Fired....next 7 years before the move to Baltimore...2 playoff appearances. I understand the logic for firing a guy like Lewis, I really do. I just don't agree with it. Until this year he had the team going the right way. I, personally would give him another year, most obviously wouldn't.

It's been fun. I think I lost again, but I hope I made at least one good point amongst the volumous crap I put out.

Once again, far better than what Lewis has produced and not the same situation.

But a case of a firing that didn't work out for the team.

:wf I'm sorry for your loss. And for Brady breaking one of Bernie Kosar's records.

he's right about Carson Palmer. he sucks.

Norv coming back.

http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=5962286

That's not what I was talking about. Marvin Lewis is a mediocre coach. The oh my god was in reference to this....

No, noone on this board can compete with me for presenting facts and logic to any debate.

Ok, facts--an abundance I offer. Perhaps you got me on the logic part!!! Trying to defend the indefensible can be rough.

well he's certainly not on Riots level of facts and logic!

In the end I presented a brilliant defense. The comparison of Wyche and Lewis was awesome. Both 8 years, identical records, identical number of years in the playoffs. I argued that in Wyche's first go, he simply had the advantage of not having his qb tear up his knee on his first postseason pass. And I showed what a disastrous result came from firing Wyche for the next 11 years for the franchise. I showed the mediocrity of coaches Wyche and Lewis was far, far better than what happened for 11 straight years in between. The Bengals did not get better when they fired Wyche...in fact they got much worse, until yes, when they hired Marvin Lewis.

Nothing I showed or argued was in fact incorrect by any definition. Pure lucidity can be tough to handle on here for many. Of course, they could hire a genius by firing Lewis like a Josh McDaniels or Rex Ryan, Or Steve Spurrier, or Todd Haley, or Bobby Petrino, yeah, all genius' at the time of the hiring. I still say, you're at the very best in a 50-50 crap shoot by firing Marvin rather than knowing what you have.

Under the veneer of what the Cincinnati Bengal organization is, that is 9 playoff appearances in 43 years of existence, marvin Lewis was one of the top 4 coaches in that team's history. Trailing only Paul Brown, Forrest Gregg, and arguably Sam Wyche.

Laugh at me if you must. I'm right and you all know it.

On a side note he is a Browns fan.






























Just in case you start believing in no agenda. juff tuh fact muhm

Oh I think he is throwing a little self sarcasim in there.




And Dahla...what in God's name do small markets have to do with it?

The Bengals have 5 post season wins in 43 years. In 40 of their 43 years they do not have a post season win. Comprehend just how bad this organization really is, and then tell me what a terrible job Marvin Lewis did there. Marvin did very, very well. Marvin's first playoff team was pretty good and his qb got hurt on the first play of the post season. He got a not very good team to win a division last year in a division with the two participants in the previous year's AFC championship game. His first really bad team was with Ryan Fitzpatrick playing qb....they started 1-11-1 and won their last 3 games of the season....did not quit. This year is another bad team and again is playing their best football right now....did not quit. I'm not a big Palmer fan but you know he is better than Fitzpatrick especially then.

I'm a Cleveland Indians fan too. I can still say Joey votto is a good first baseman. As a Browns fan, I hope they fire Marvin and hire a Josh McDaniels, or Petrino rather than a Haley or Ryan, or Mike Smith. After all, in 8 years with Marvin, the Bengals fnished ahead of the Browns 6 times. The two times he didn't are this year, and the other time the Browns needed to beat Marvin's team to clinch a playoff berth and Marvin's team beat them. You're darn right I want him fired. That's applicable I guess. I think the chances are better than 50-50 they hire a worse coach than him which was my point all along.

Ok, You got me on the Marvin Lewis should be fired without question. You really did!! I'll stand alone on this one but is that the only item that proves you are wrong on message boards?? I was ganged up upon. I don't care. My points are solid and everyone knows it.

Probably not a lot when considering the wealth of the owners involved in Schott's career but when the NFL wasn't the cash machine that it is today, before PSL's and the seas of luxury boxes, the market and the wealth of the owner had a huge impact on a team's ability to sign players and stay competitive.

Not to say smaller markets couldn't compete or even thrive but there is no doubt that there was a disadvantage.

At that time Modell was pretty well loaded up...really.

You had a wrong moment that did not include making sense.


But you're very up on your stuff, so you can get by with some of these....and I still have no likeness of your boo bees.







Just thayin'.

It was a wrong moment I admit but didn't modell leave over money? The browns were broke and the city stiffed modell on the stadium. He had no choice really. Marty was long gone in 95 so I still had a wrong moment.

I think Marty was an excellent coach that got some bad breaks.

Yes he did,but MS left in '87 after taking over in '83....mid season I think.Modell had no money problems then...at all.At least here,MS benefitted from the front office obtaining the right players...and insome cases,asst. coaches.

You could have coached those guys to the same level.


So wrong AND no sense.....ha-ha!




I didn't think he was anything special at all.

Actually it was -84 mid season and he left after '88. Remember they won their first game under Carson in Pittsburgh 51-0 in '89 and we had the genius coach we so desperately needed!! His genius faded very quickly through the season but they still squeaked into the playoffs, then in '90 Bud went 3-13 and didn't last the year. Then you know who came in '91! and we were introduced to "diminishing skills". (he was actually right about that.) Marty was without question the 2nd best Cleveland coach in my lifetime. I was born in the Blanton Collier era so he obviously was number 1. After him, Marty was easily the next best. Forrest Gregg went to a Super Bowl when he left Cleveland and Belichick won 3, but in Cleveland not that good.

I do these things off the top...so I'll give to your '84 and '88.Now that you say it..I do recall '88 was his last.

MS had the best players after the 60's.The players seem to be the important mix...to me...but his records stands.I just didn't like him and saw no great traights.Infante kinda helped,too.

And Carson...He got the team as they were going down.. age caught up with it..That team changed drasticly in just 2 years.You know what's happened since.

if only the owners could be fired....

Durr they won two in a row after losing 11 out of 13, give that man a raise!

Your arguments are ridiculous. I don't care if he was coaching the Bad News Bears, he's made absolutely no progress from his good start and should be fired. I'm willing to bet you didn't see either of their losses to the Bucs and Saints. They were embarrassing defeats that were a direct result of terrible coaching.

I can't even believe you're still belaboring this absurd point that because the Bengals suck historically, he should be allowed to go 7-9 and 8-8 and 4-12 for the rest of infinity. That's complete loser bullshit.

Don't expect Kubiak to get canned. Bob McNair is soft and likes the "good guy" image that Kubiak conveys. There's been a lot of talk about Wade Phillips becoming the new Defensive Coordinator and it's a great career move for him, the Texans defense can't get any worse. Any unit that makes Tim Tebow look like a legit NFL QB is obviously terrible.

Please stop. They are not ridiculous arguments. You disagree with my defense of marvin lewis which is fine. That's it. Nothing I said was ridiculous. I pretty much just stated facts. You think the facts support firing him. As I said, that's fine. I would keep him one more year as we don't know what will happen with the labor situation etc, and to jump on a new guy right now would be silly I think. You know what you have. If they lock out you lose nothing having Marvin one more year. It's the Bengals.

I did not see the Bucs game...I saw the end of the Saints game when the guy fell for the get them to jump offside ploy. (as is typical you left out 11-5, 10-6 seasons in your for rest of infinity argument...are you for real??)

How many years do you give Ryan to get the Jets to the Super Bowl before you fire him?? I'm not being facetious or anything. It's just a question for you.

Phillips as a Defensive Coordinator might be a great move. He has excelled when serving in that capacity only. I still don't have a warm and fuzzy about Kubiak staying. If they the Texans get Philips as D coordinator than i'm assuming this will be Kubiak's make it or your fired year.

Is this Cleveland humor?

what's humorous about it?? I am asking a serious qeustion for ateam as to what would be his length of time not winning a Super Bowl to keep Ryan. It's very simple. 8 years, no Super Bowls, 2 playoffs, no wins is beyond obviously enough to fire Lewis as every single person who types on this board agrees with save me. There is obviously some set level as to when you fire a coach which I am unaware of. I am trying to educate myself. I want to know where that point lies with Ryan with the Jets. cowher went what 13 years before winning a Super Bowl?? Should the Steelers have waited that long??

Why is it so hard to answer a very simple question? As Jets fan, how long do you want to keep Ryan should he fail to win a Super Bowl....obviously if that happens it changes everything, but I'm just asking a very simple question, how long do you keep him if he doesn't do that?

You guys have proven that you are way, way, way, way smarter than me. I find it odd you can't educate someone stupid,l or if not stupid, someone who needs educated. It's a really simple question, that I think has a hard unsolvable answer. You guys have obviously solved it as it is unanimously time to fire Lewis. I am the singular person on this board who is not convinced it is absolutely time. You should know how long to give Ryan.

You know, just help a person out here.
show me the....
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