Isn't it also worth noting that the fast figure was earned under optimal conditions...i.e. sitting off a fast pace and making a move up a strong rail?

TEN points Steve in 5 months, not only is that super impressive, but also ALOT of improvement, I guess in actuality it is expected from a 2 year old but from a wagering perspective, value has been sucked completely dry and is unplayable until he gets to the Derby, if he does

What you say is true but I still worry about 7.5 pts of development from a 2 yo. that already is running good figures. It just seems that very few if any horses that move up that much have any development left in them. I know he was a three year old but Talkin man had a huge jump up in the Wood and was never the same horse after. Though every horse and situation is different, and I am not a knocker of the horse by any means, I will be suprised if he becomes a superhorse and breaks through that number anytime soon.

Of course. Still a great number, but the perfect trip probably aided it a couple points.

All I know about this guy is he's a quality horse and I feel stupid for not going with my gut instinct that he was the best value in the race off a poorly timed run at KEE and instead just taking the more "cowardly" method of inclusion in a multirace bet.

I think that that is surely worth noting. I thought that just about every Breeders Cup winner had a perfect trip with the exception of Invasor who had a pretty good one. Dreaming of Anna got an unexpected easy lead. Street Sense got through on the rail. OB got a dream trip. Thors Echo was in an ideal position. Red Rocks got the first run and saved ground around the turns. Round Pond got a perfect pocket trip behind a fast pace with 2 contenders failing to complete the course. Miesques approval ran really well considering he passed pretty much the whole field and outkicked the kickers. He would have had probably the toughest trip of all the winners.

Also, Keyed Entry and First Samurai both had distance limitations. They were better suited for a mile or 8.5F and so where the sires (yes I remember GC in the BC Classic getting 10F-that was done on heart and talent) Street Sense has a better shot at 10F being by Street Cry, who won the Dubai World Cup and the Stephen Foster.

Isn't that usually the norm in BC races? Or in any race with 14 horses for that matter. Only a far superior horse can overcome a bad trip in full fields of good horses. There are too many good horses in the BC to let someone overcome a bad trip.

Steve, a 7 debut is good. A "0" debut by Discreet last year is the freakish fast kind.

Too much development, too early for Street I'm afraid. We'll see.


As for the wraps comments before on Nafzger. He absolutely runs most of his horses in wraps all the time, as does Wilkes by the way. The difference here is that he didn't always do that with Street Sense. Could be something, might be nothing. But I've seen enough of the wraps on angle as a warning sign in my life to be skeptical. Bluegrass Cat anyone?

R.I.,

Go back in the thread.. The Cannon Shell guy, who seems to know a thing or two about Churchill doin's, says that Street Sense had a cut on his leg that Nafzger wanted covered for logical reasons...

I think it's an interesting theory, and since I don't follow sheet numbers much, I'm interested to see how he turns out.
I have to agree it's a little premature to bury a horse that won so impressively.
We all know how difficult it is to predict a derby favorite this early, and I would guess we'll be talking about several other new contenders by the first of the year.

As I said Steve, "could be nothing." If it was a cut, I guess it was nothing. Its something I pointed out in my original post which is something handicappers don't pay enough attention to in general.

The issue remains the number that was run and when it was run. He better be special to overcome that. Whether he is off 6 months or a year. I've seen enough of this to know he's up against it regardless of who his trainer is.

Time will tell.

Guys, if I could chime in for a second...

Polo wraps do not provide the kind of support necessary to prevent an actual soft tissue injury. They are primarily used as protection from exterior damage (as in bumps, bangs, etc from other horses.) In order for a polo wrap to provide the kind of necessary support everyone is talking about here, it would have to be put on extremely tight and that kind of pressure can cause bandage bows (which is a bigger risk.) Just my opinion...

Actually, polo wraps protect a horse from splints, bucked shins, windpuffs, bruises...etc. Splints, windpuffs, and bucked shins cause temporary lameness, but can be seen as a blemish for the rest of a horse's life. Also, if wrapped right, polo wraps do provide support when they are hooked just behind the fetlock joint. They provide support of the flexor tendons. Also, no extremely good horseman will ever wrap the wraps tight enough as to bow a tendon. Every great hunter/jumper trainer and dressage trainer that I have ever seen uses them. I've wrapped hundreds of horses, and have never had one bow a tendon yet, and I'm not even worried about it because I know how to wrap...

Here is a list of all the soft tissue injuries that wraps may prevent...
http://www.umm.edu/orthopaedics/soft.htm

Also, it has come to my attention from a very knowledgable race tracker that wraps may actually slow down a horse a little bit, and it would make sense because the horse does not have quite as much flexibility in their fetlock joint. There is some slight tension and resistence at the joint from the wraps. Alot of the major trainers of the sport believe this (or so I've been told...but my source is reliable). Of course, I would never ever ever let that affect the way I bet a race, or me ever using wraps on my horses.

Also, a lot of racehorse trainers use wraps as a means of preventing burns on the bottom of a horse's fetlock joint when they are running in a race. This is especially true for horses who are a little coon footed (long in the pasterns), because these horses fetlock joints will touch the ground while they are running.

Okay, Im done now.

I disagree, Jessica. I've been wrapping horses since I was 6 years old, so yeah, I know how to wrap as well and I haven't ever caused a bowed tendon either. It CAN happen, though and that is the primary reason that smart horsemen will not wrap their horses with POLO wraps while trailering (bandage bows.) As you know, there are different types of boots and leg protection gear to use while riding and while I personally use polo wraps during routine riding, I do so because of the protection they offer to the exterior of the horses leg (especially for horses who overreach, etc.) I use jumping boots, splint boots etc for actual support and my trainer will not "hook" polo wraps because there IS a risk in doing that, and when you've got eventers that are worth a quarter of a million buckaroos, you don't want to chance it. :D

Polo wraps got their name because they were originally popular among polo players. Their usefulness has long since expanded into most every other discipline. Polo wraps, usually made of cotton-blend fabric, offer wide-spectrum protection, depending on how they are used. People who use polo wraps like them because of their versatility, since different parts of the leg can be protected, depending on how they are applied. Using polo wraps, however, requires some experience, since a leg can be easily damaged by a wrap that has been applied improperly. They also require more maintenance than leg boots in order to maintain their usefulness and elasticity.

As a former racetrack groom, I'm here to tell you there's a giant difference between "wraps" and "bandages" and "rundowns" and where they all go and what they're all for.

Bandages in the true sense are what goes on a horse in his stall. Standing, sweats, poultices, spiders...

Wraps are usually used during training and are "polo" types, discussed above, or "tracers" which resemble ace bandages and are used for both protection and added support. Of course some also use tight vetwrap bandages on horses when training when the horse needs it; I was lucky to never have had one of them. I had a mare, who won a stakes at Ellis Park in 1997, who had some ankle issues and we used tracers on all fours for her and that was more than sufficient.

Oh and racing bandages are called "rundowns" when on hind legs and are, basically, vetwrap around the ankles and a rundown patch over the top (or back of the ankle, in this case.) I think this is what you were referring to when you mentioned preventing burns, which is called running down. For front bandages, which is what the "f" in the Form is for, it's the same thing, only wrapped tightly for support rather than prevention of running down, nine times out of 10. I've seen a horse or two actually run down in front, too. But it's rare...

Thanks. That is good stuff.

Thanks... very good info there. I had never heard of "tracers." :o

.....negative smegative........horse got looked in the eye, and punched in the neck. a horse like g.z would have beat that group by 10.

Apparently identifying sarcasm is NOT one of your strong suits.

I am sure gz would have but considering he only raced 2.6x a year that doesn't say much for him.

Ghostzapper is just like Discreet Cat. Tons of talent and unable to stay healthy. That doesn't make for a great horse.