Fewer posters have contributed as much quality information in as short a time as bravado. Well done!

I love these figs that Bravado is posting. It is a great reminder of what a good horse genuinely looked like. Seeing Cigar's numbers is very interesting, as at the time everyone that used numbers recognized him as a good horse, and very consistent, but over all not supremely fast. When you compare him to some of the other horses Bravado has posted that is obvious. The problem is that these days very mediocre good horses get annointed as superstars. There was Smarty Jones, a relatively slow good horses ( save his LAST win...the Preakness ), and then there may be the worst offender of all time...Afleet Alex. People talk about him with hushed tones, and he was a nice horse, just slow. Would either of those two horses have run some really " fast " races had they stuck around, possibly, but also quite possibly they would have been swallowed up as perhaps some others improved. I highly doubt Afleet Alex would have had an easy time with the Flower Alley of the summer of 2005. On the other hand, Seattle Slew was " slow " as a 3YO and it wasn't until he was really tested, in the Fall of his 4YO season, that we found out how good he really was.

The point....stop annointing superstars based on a few races and keep some perspective on what we are seeing. These numbers of horses from the last 20 years offer some great perspective. I would like to see Precisionist's numbers, and the distances he was running, at his peak ( and before his awful unretirement ). Then there was Turkoman. Man, these were GOOD horses, and they raced.

i wonder what alysheba beyer was the race prior to b cup? i believe he ran a sub 59 under 130 lbs:eek: ....... that horses 1988 campaign was freakish.

His win in the Woodward, over Forty Niner, was awesome. I think that's the race you are talking about. Yeah, he was another horse that would put these paper tigers to shame.

well thats race was a track record at the time, but i believe it was his next start, the medowlands cup?? he went 1.58 and change carrying 130:)

Bravado
 

Is that you Darrell?

Dinver

I was at both of those races. The Meadowlands Cup was a small field and he dominated Slew City Slew but the Woodward was a full field of about eight decent horses. I do recall at the Meadowlands that night that McCarron and Pincay dominated the night, finishing one-two a number of times, and not always at shot prices.

Damnit, you guys beat me to this. I was just gonna bring Alysheba as well.
Imagine what he would have done to the most recent classic field?
Now thats another great example of a racehorse, and BTW also beat me to mentioning Turkoman. Tell you what, the most incredible race Turkoman ever ran was a losing effort at Saratoga, the 7f race where you never saw a horse in your entire life come down the stretch like he did falling one length short of Groovy, and Groovy was sensational sprinting.
Thsi whole discussion the past few weeks has me realizing how lucky I was to have seen the horses that I have seen, and how little I appreciated them at the time.

That was just a scary display of talent, and I don't think it was the Woodward. I think that was the mile and a quarter race on that dead slow track where he broke two minutes anyway(!;59 and change I believe) despite not getting "his setup" and carrying a couch on his back.
Just crazy good, I wonder If I'll ever see another performance like that again.

Thanks Bravado, very sincerely thanks.
Imagine where the Bull was headed had he not been injured?
DC's race the other day was hyped as the greatest thing since sliced bread, and look what the Bull did as a THREE YEAR OLD in the SUMMER AND EARLY FALL!!!!
Holy Bull's Woodward was twice the race that Discreet Cat's mile was.

Bravado I don't know who you are but PLEASE come back and give us Alysheba's numbers. I have to see those.

....... sheba4 has horrible numbers........he is a digrace to the capping colony, it was like a 1 legged man in an ass kicking contest this year:mad:

LOL!!
I wasn't referring to you, I was referring to your namesake.
I'd love to see his numbers and the number on that incredible Belmont race.

yeah, J.V.B at the time considered that win at historic belmont park as big as the derby victory........ he was so happy the great fans from new york got to see their favorite horse bring his a game, against the great and underrated forty niner.

Mike,
I saw you mentioned Groovy.
Sad to say, Jose Martin passed away recently. RIP.
http://www.thoroughbredtimes.com/tod...67952&subsec=1

So true. I have been following this sport since '77. It seemed like I took for granted there was always an exciting horse in training that would dance all the dances. The best horse to run in the last 8 years or so is probably Ghostzapper and he went to the post 11 times in 4 seasons.

I guess I have to admit that I also forgot how lucky I was to have seen horses like the ones we are talking about.
Lots of Kool Aid being drank this year in regards to a few "superhorses".
I think we've talked about some REAL superhorses on this thread, and I hope I get to see some more.
I was younger when these horses ran, and I guess I took for granted that what i was witnessing was always gonna be there in some form.
I wonder how many folks who have read this thread and thought about Formal Gold, Skip Away, Holy Bull, Cigar, Alysheba, Sunday Silence, Easy Goer,etc and saw their figs and got red faced about buying the hype on a few horses lately.
Lets just hope we get to see some horses like that again, and more importantly, lets see some rivalries like these horses had.
They produced exciting races and thrills and chills up the spine. Not getting a whole lot of that lately.

mike,
I was going to start a thread titled "Best Rivalries". Thought about it.
My vote would go to Affirmed and Alydar...
Dems da ones that got me hooked.

This is a great thread. I have followed the sport since the 60's and it's good to know that people appreciate the thoroughbreds that ran more than once a month and faced fields larger than 4 or 5 other horses. A couple of months ago, when Bernardinimania was rampant, some posters suggested that he be considered among the greats or would soon be. Looking at some of the figures you folks are posting should make people realize what it really takes for a horse to be considered great and the horses and races that stick in your mind and make you appreciate the sport.

Even with all the talk about the youngsters jumping to call any 'now' horse a great horse or a superhorse, I will say in all honesty that even though I was still relatively a kid (edit: after reading what i wrote...i was not relatively a kid...i WAS a kid), I understood that Skip Away was great when I was watching him on TV.

I understood, having followed Cigar's streak, that I was in the presence of greatness when I went to the Arlington-Citation challenge because i made my mom take me even when she didn't want to brave the crowds that day I forced her to.

I honestly think that Skip Away is the best horse I've ever seen in the time I've been interested in this sport -- with Cigar and Ghostzapper close seconds.

Yeah, that rivalry is almost hard to believe when you think about today's racing. While they met in a couple early season races ( Alydar debuting in the Youthful, and being favored, with Affirmed winning and then turning the tables in the Young American ), it wasn't until later that the rivalry became intense. After Alydar won the Sapling, I believe, and Affirmed won a stake at Hollywood and the Sanford in Saratoga they hooked up for four knock 'em dead battles in just two months. The Hopeful was the only one I saw in person but I can still remember them all. Then, to carry it into the TC races the way they did was just incredible.

The incredible thing is that those two horses ( and Alydar was an awesome animal that should never be forgotten in Affirmed's wake ) is they were sandwiched between Seattle Slew and Spectacular Bid.

Bernadini couldn't have warmed up Holy Bull for that matter, those 47:4 and 48 half miles would only have had him about 15 lengths behind the big grey Bull.
One of my earliest remembrances was watching Affirmed and Alydar in the belmont with my grandfather and father. I was 9 years old, and only understood that it was a famous race, etc. But I stil remember my grandfather wanting Alydar to win and just saying the other horse is better after they hit the line. I wasn't a fan yet though and I didn't truly understand or appreciate what I was seeing.

Cigar was the first dramatically overrated horse of the spate of overrated horses we have seen. He was a trendsetter!

Skip Away was better, on his best days, and he ran some great races, but I wouldn't call him a great horse.

Agree with everything you've written 100%. Nowadays, they would've been lightly raced at 2, maybe hooked up in the BC Juvenile. Avoided each other, maybe hooked up in Derby. One of them wins, goes on to the Preakness while the defeated one is rested for the Belmont or maybe the Travers.

affirmed got the better of alydar so many times. unbelievable the career those two had just facing each other. loved alydar, have one of his pics on the wall of my office. funny, no affirmed tho....also have cigar, the bid and john henry, genuine risk and the legendary seattle slew.

no way, no how, two top horses will ever come close to facing each other like those two did, or like kelso and gun bow. citation and noor.

I respectfully disagree, and leave it at that.

I was on the third floor at Belmont for that Belmont Stakes. Those were very exciting times.

I can still remember Affirmed's win in the Jim Dandy. I was sitting around the sixteenth pole, and Sensitive Prince ( who may not have seemed like a killer then but I would venture a guess would be drooled over on internet boards should his likeness show up now ) had a FIVE length lead at the eighth pole, and Affirmed ran him down in what was his first start after the Belmont.

And, frankly, the recovery Alydar made in the subsequent Travers, regardless of what camp you are in as to whether or not he could run down Affirmed if they were eye to eye, was spectacular. Not quite as spectacular, as the decisive move Alydar made at the top of the stretch on the way to his seven length destruction of the Whitney field ( of which JO Tobin was a member ).

Man, THOSE were good racehorses.

Sounds about right. Alydar probably would have passed the Travers for the West Virginia Derby as well.

Blackthroatedwind,
I actually rooted for Alydar in every one.
Though he didn't beat Affirmed in the big dances, Alydar went on to become a better sire, especially of broodmares, until his unfortunate demise.
Three of mine carry his genes.
I hope they carry his courage.
DTS

You realize of course that as much as I live and have always loved this game, that mother****ers like you who got to see and UNDERSTAND and APPRECIATE Seattle Slew, Spectacular Bid, and Affirmed-Alydar make me extremely jealous.
I mean, I remember sitting alone in my grandparent's living room and watching Slew win the Belmont( I decided at age 8 that I liked the name Run Dusty Run and was rooting for him), but I coulkdn't appreciate it.
Of course it could be worse, instead of having seen the horses we mentioned on this thread in the 80's and 90's, I could be worshipping at the altar of Discreet cat and Bernadini rather than Holy Bull and Alysheba and Skip Away and EG-SS. And I suppose you are jealous of those who got to see the stars of the 60's and early 70's.

sunday silences super derby was just that. man i like watching him run, and win....except when he was running against and beating easy goer! lol

sunday silence, the quintessential blue collar, hard luck, ugly duckling underdog who showed what a champ could be made of!!

outstanding btw..of the 4 races id love to know the total distance run and lenths they were head to head..we will never see this again,,,,

I rooted for Affirmed, but really loved them both at the time, and looked forward to their races as much as any in my entire life. I was even at Aqueduct for the Remsen when Believe It beat Alydar.

I guess as I got older, and became very friendly with John Veitch, I became more of an Alydar fan. However, I just love a good horse, an actually good one.

Affirmed won the Hopeful by a half length, the Futurity by a nose ( I feel like they were head and head the whole way and Nasty and Bold, who believe me was a GOOD horse was ELEVEN lengths back in third ), Alydar won the Champagne by 1 1/4 lengths ( in the mud and he ambushed him ) and Affirmed came back to win the Laurel Futurity by a neck two weeks later.

Earlier, someone posted a link to Youbet. I checked it out at work and for the last hour there watched the replays of Forego's Marlboro Cup, Secretariat's Preakness (my personal favorite), Secretariat's Man O'War, and other races that I feel fortunate to have witnessed (TV of course). And since then there have been all the other great horses that some of you have had the pleasure of seeing. It's great to share the memories.

I'm sorry I missed Dr. Fager as everyone I know says he was the best they ever saw and I wish I could have seen Buckpasser and Damascus as well during that time.

I did see Forego run quite a few times and was right there for both his Marlboro, one a loss to Wajima and the other the win over Honest Pleasure. I was lucky enough to see a lot of good horses and for that I'm grateful.

so btw when people say super horse or alltime great..a more seasoned player like yourself rolls eyes...and gets up from the key board in disgust..very understandable....

dr fagers one turf race would rank right up there with personal ensigns run in the distaff. he was slipping and sliding all over the grass, absolutely detested the surface. but everyone time a horse took a run at him, he'd pin his ears and turn them back.
won for top turf horse that year. on one race.

No different probably than guys who rolled there eyes at me who saw Sec, Bid, Affirmed, Alydar, Dr Fager, Buckpasser, etc when i talked like I did about the horses I saw in the 80's and 90's.
That was the point I was making Hooves. Not that anyone is smarter than anyone, just that whats great now wasn't great back then. And the older you are, the more you probably roll your eyes these days.
The horses we just talked about in the 80's and 90's, the guys older than me are gonna say they weren't Affirmed or Bid or Sec or Alydar or fager.
I guess the quality overall has slipped(I've blamed the adventof the BC a million times on here and firmly believe its detroyed and is destroying the game), and even i was a little taken aback at the figs that were posted. It jogged some memories.

Maybe I'm just getting old and losing some patience, but it does seem that the thoughts that some people expressed was more than just the usual excitement that is generated when a good horse runs. I hope that the lessons learned from this summer will be remembered. However, I confess that I was extremely enthusiastic about Barbaro.