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Isn't it also worth noting that the fast figure was earned under optimal conditions...i.e. sitting off a fast pace and making a move up a strong rail?
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All I know about this guy is he's a quality horse and I feel stupid for not going with my gut instinct that he was the best value in the race off a poorly timed run at KEE and instead just taking the more "cowardly" method of inclusion in a multirace bet. |
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Steve, a 7 debut is good. A "0" debut by Discreet last year is the freakish fast kind.
Too much development, too early for Street I'm afraid. We'll see. As for the wraps comments before on Nafzger. He absolutely runs most of his horses in wraps all the time, as does Wilkes by the way. The difference here is that he didn't always do that with Street Sense. Could be something, might be nothing. But I've seen enough of the wraps on angle as a warning sign in my life to be skeptical. Bluegrass Cat anyone? |
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Go back in the thread.. The Cannon Shell guy, who seems to know a thing or two about Churchill doin's, says that Street Sense had a cut on his leg that Nafzger wanted covered for logical reasons... |
I think it's an interesting theory, and since I don't follow sheet numbers much, I'm interested to see how he turns out.
I have to agree it's a little premature to bury a horse that won so impressively. We all know how difficult it is to predict a derby favorite this early, and I would guess we'll be talking about several other new contenders by the first of the year. |
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The issue remains the number that was run and when it was run. He better be special to overcome that. Whether he is off 6 months or a year. I've seen enough of this to know he's up against it regardless of who his trainer is. Time will tell. |
Guys, if I could chime in for a second...
Polo wraps do not provide the kind of support necessary to prevent an actual soft tissue injury. They are primarily used as protection from exterior damage (as in bumps, bangs, etc from other horses.) In order for a polo wrap to provide the kind of necessary support everyone is talking about here, it would have to be put on extremely tight and that kind of pressure can cause bandage bows (which is a bigger risk.) Just my opinion... |
Actually, polo wraps protect a horse from splints, bucked shins, windpuffs, bruises...etc. Splints, windpuffs, and bucked shins cause temporary lameness, but can be seen as a blemish for the rest of a horse's life. Also, if wrapped right, polo wraps do provide support when they are hooked just behind the fetlock joint. They provide support of the flexor tendons. Also, no extremely good horseman will ever wrap the wraps tight enough as to bow a tendon. Every great hunter/jumper trainer and dressage trainer that I have ever seen uses them. I've wrapped hundreds of horses, and have never had one bow a tendon yet, and I'm not even worried about it because I know how to wrap...
Here is a list of all the soft tissue injuries that wraps may prevent... http://www.umm.edu/orthopaedics/soft.htm Also, it has come to my attention from a very knowledgable race tracker that wraps may actually slow down a horse a little bit, and it would make sense because the horse does not have quite as much flexibility in their fetlock joint. There is some slight tension and resistence at the joint from the wraps. Alot of the major trainers of the sport believe this (or so I've been told...but my source is reliable). Of course, I would never ever ever let that affect the way I bet a race, or me ever using wraps on my horses. Also, a lot of racehorse trainers use wraps as a means of preventing burns on the bottom of a horse's fetlock joint when they are running in a race. This is especially true for horses who are a little coon footed (long in the pasterns), because these horses fetlock joints will touch the ground while they are running. Okay, Im done now. |
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Polo wraps got their name because they were originally popular among polo players. Their usefulness has long since expanded into most every other discipline. Polo wraps, usually made of cotton-blend fabric, offer wide-spectrum protection, depending on how they are used. People who use polo wraps like them because of their versatility, since different parts of the leg can be protected, depending on how they are applied. Using polo wraps, however, requires some experience, since a leg can be easily damaged by a wrap that has been applied improperly. They also require more maintenance than leg boots in order to maintain their usefulness and elasticity. |
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Bandages in the true sense are what goes on a horse in his stall. Standing, sweats, poultices, spiders... Wraps are usually used during training and are "polo" types, discussed above, or "tracers" which resemble ace bandages and are used for both protection and added support. Of course some also use tight vetwrap bandages on horses when training when the horse needs it; I was lucky to never have had one of them. I had a mare, who won a stakes at Ellis Park in 1997, who had some ankle issues and we used tracers on all fours for her and that was more than sufficient. Oh and racing bandages are called "rundowns" when on hind legs and are, basically, vetwrap around the ankles and a rundown patch over the top (or back of the ankle, in this case.) I think this is what you were referring to when you mentioned preventing burns, which is called running down. For front bandages, which is what the "f" in the Form is for, it's the same thing, only wrapped tightly for support rather than prevention of running down, nine times out of 10. I've seen a horse or two actually run down in front, too. But it's rare... |
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Ghostzapper is just like Discreet Cat. Tons of talent and unable to stay healthy. That doesn't make for a great horse. |
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And what is the risk for hooking polo wraps? Please tell me. I would love to know because I am baffled from that statement. Also, as redransom said, racehorse trainers do have their horses fetlock joints hooked. Some of those animals are worth millions and millions. Take Afleet Alex for example. Tim Ritchey used to be a three day eventer, and he had Alex's rundowns hooked behind the fetlock joint. In your second paragraph, you forgot to talk about how polo wraps add SUPPORT. I could find numerous articles by famous horsemen agreeing with me on this. I have learned everything I know through experience. I use bell boots for horses overreaching. If you are riding animals who overreach so badly that they hit their cannon bones or ankle joint, then they aren't very high dollar or quality animals because they can't move. |
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I dont know of any race track that allows horses running in races with polos, or did someone mention that already. Years ago in California we would use gelo casts under vet wrap or aces in the aide of more support. Well after a few trainers claimed these horses wearing the casts underneath the wraps, they complained to the racing board and it wasn't long before the rule of only vet wrap or similar designed products, and ace bandages were allowed for racing purposes..
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It was my mistake in assuming they were talking about polo wraps. |
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No polos for racing, that's still the same, but some still use gelos under vetwrap and aces (the latter for training only as I think vetwrap is the only approved bandage on raceday.) Truth be told, they don't check close enough before races to notice if a horse has a gelo under the vetwrap. Me personally, I've never worked for anyone who's used gelo under vetwrap, thank goodness, but lots of my pals have... |
I don't care what they wrap him with, unless it's bubble wrap and they put away him until he is a 4yo...I would love to be wrong, because if he can get back to that number, he likely wins the Derby, but I think it's too much...
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I'll Bump This So People Understand My Justification
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It would take some kind of injury for him to not make it to the Derby starting gate and most likely he will be the morning line derby favorite. |
Number.....
Should be strong, would not suprise me to see him ML fav, still a few preps to go though.
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Please take it easy on Randall. :D
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Yes there is still aways to go but I don't know how he doesn't make it to the derby. |
I take it street sense won ?:confused:
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Would this be bumped had he lost by a nose? If he ran up the track? I highly doubt it.
I'll stick to my call. He ran better than I thought he would today but with that trip he should win. Mind you the worst he could've been in this field had he run a nothing Beyer was second b/c the group was dreadful aside from Any Given....But, Was this a Grade 1? Nope, was that a negative number. Not a chance. The best number Any Given had run was a 2. Street Sense maybe ran a 2 with that ground saving trip. Came back in fronts which he shouldn't be needing....Still don't think he'll make the Derby, nor run a negative his 3 yr old season, nor win a Grade 1 the rest of his career....Let's wait to throw dirt on me until he does. K. |
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And the sad thing is, I wasn't rooting against him in the least. Not at all. I think it would be great if a juvy winner could win the Derby....But if you follow Thoros and believe in them the call made sense. Nothing I saw today changes that. |
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I never said he will win the derby. My only point was and still is that your call was not a good one since it was based primarily on a number and ignored some of the other circumstances. I use thoro numbers too, but I do not use them in a such a mechanical way, I'm not a Thoro-lemming. For example; If horse A runs a neg 2 at two years old then X,Y, and Z outcomes are a certainty. |
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