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blackthroatedwind 11-09-2006 12:58 PM

Isn't it also worth noting that the fast figure was earned under optimal conditions...i.e. sitting off a fast pace and making a move up a strong rail?

Scav 11-09-2006 01:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kasept
Another thing not being taken into consideration in this discussion is where the figure/performance came in regards to Street Sense's development. He debuted fast (7.75) and then alternated with a top (5.5), pair (6.5), pair (5.5). The -2 is a 7.5 point move as a two year old in the fall. Hardly outrageous if the point of reference is taken without the stunningly fast figure Saturday.

If another Juvy had gone 10.5, 8.5, 7.5, 8.5, 1 in a similar series, we'd be impressed and all but wouldn't be fearing for his future. Street Sense started out as a faster 2 year old. It could simply be that this is his natural progression and he's that fast. As Rev pointed out, as a February foal, he should already ahead of the curve physically.

It could be that he's an early developer, but considering that he has been getting faster as the distances stretch out, I'd doubt it a bit. Had he started his pattern at a 16 and gotten down to the -2, I'd be a lot more concerned that the effort could do him lasting damage. But given that he started fast and got faster by his fifth start, I'm prepared to expect a continuation of good things from him under the care of one of the game's real horsemen.

TEN points Steve in 5 months, not only is that super impressive, but also ALOT of improvement, I guess in actuality it is expected from a 2 year old but from a wagering perspective, value has been sucked completely dry and is unplayable until he gets to the Derby, if he does

Cannon Shell 11-09-2006 01:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kasept
Another thing not being taken into consideration in this discussion is where the figure/performance came in regards to Street Sense's development. He debuted fast (7.75) and then alternated with a top (5.5), pair (6.5), pair (5.5). The -2 is a 7.5 point move as a two year old in the fall. Hardly outrageous if the point of reference is taken without the stunningly fast figure Saturday.

If another Juvy had gone 10.5, 8.5, 7.5, 8.5, 1 in a similar series, we'd be impressed and all but wouldn't be fearing for his future. Street Sense started out as a faster 2 year old. It could simply be that this is his natural progression and he's that fast. As Rev pointed out, as a February foal, he should already ahead of the curve physically.

It could be that he's an early developer, but considering that he has been getting faster as the distances stretch out, I'd doubt it a bit. Had he started his pattern at a 16 and gotten down to the -2, I'd be a lot more concerned that the effort could do him lasting damage. But given that he started fast and got faster by his fifth start, I'm prepared to expect a continuation of good things from him under the care of one of the game's real horsemen.

What you say is true but I still worry about 7.5 pts of development from a 2 yo. that already is running good figures. It just seems that very few if any horses that move up that much have any development left in them. I know he was a three year old but Talkin man had a huge jump up in the Wood and was never the same horse after. Though every horse and situation is different, and I am not a knocker of the horse by any means, I will be suprised if he becomes a superhorse and breaks through that number anytime soon.

philcski 11-09-2006 01:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind
Isn't it also worth noting that the fast figure was earned under optimal conditions...i.e. sitting off a fast pace and making a move up a strong rail?

Of course. Still a great number, but the perfect trip probably aided it a couple points.

All I know about this guy is he's a quality horse and I feel stupid for not going with my gut instinct that he was the best value in the race off a poorly timed run at KEE and instead just taking the more "cowardly" method of inclusion in a multirace bet.

Cannon Shell 11-09-2006 01:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind
Isn't it also worth noting that the fast figure was earned under optimal conditions...i.e. sitting off a fast pace and making a move up a strong rail?

I think that that is surely worth noting. I thought that just about every Breeders Cup winner had a perfect trip with the exception of Invasor who had a pretty good one. Dreaming of Anna got an unexpected easy lead. Street Sense got through on the rail. OB got a dream trip. Thors Echo was in an ideal position. Red Rocks got the first run and saved ground around the turns. Round Pond got a perfect pocket trip behind a fast pace with 2 contenders failing to complete the course. Miesques approval ran really well considering he passed pretty much the whole field and outkicked the kickers. He would have had probably the toughest trip of all the winners.

KY_Sasquash 11-09-2006 01:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kasept
Needing wraps and using wraps are two different things. Afleet Alex always ran in wraps.. what of it?

Running the big effort isn't the issue... Running back too soon after the effort IS... Carl Nafzger is again, the difference here.

Keyed Entry ran on that horrible sloppy track at Gulfstream which also ruined First Samurai, and then ran back way too soon in the Gotham (?)...

Second of June ran back as well after the FOY and wasn't even three at the time yet (chronologically)...

FuSam.. who cares?

Nafzger will turn this colt out and give him every minute he needs to recover.

Also, Keyed Entry and First Samurai both had distance limitations. They were better suited for a mile or 8.5F and so where the sires (yes I remember GC in the BC Classic getting 10F-that was done on heart and talent) Street Sense has a better shot at 10F being by Street Cry, who won the Dubai World Cup and the Stephen Foster.

Bigsmc 11-09-2006 01:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell
I think that that is surely worth noting. I thought that just about every Breeders Cup winner had a perfect trip with the exception of Invasor who had a pretty good one. Dreaming of Anna got an unexpected easy lead. Street Sense got through on the rail. OB got a dream trip. Thors Echo was in an ideal position. Red Rocks got the first run and saved ground around the turns. Round Pond got a perfect pocket trip behind a fast pace with 2 contenders failing to complete the course. Miesques approval ran really well considering he passed pretty much the whole field and outkicked the kickers. He would have had probably the toughest trip of all the winners.

Isn't that usually the norm in BC races? Or in any race with 14 horses for that matter. Only a far superior horse can overcome a bad trip in full fields of good horses. There are too many good horses in the BC to let someone overcome a bad trip.

randallscott35 11-09-2006 02:27 PM

Steve, a 7 debut is good. A "0" debut by Discreet last year is the freakish fast kind.

Too much development, too early for Street I'm afraid. We'll see.


As for the wraps comments before on Nafzger. He absolutely runs most of his horses in wraps all the time, as does Wilkes by the way. The difference here is that he didn't always do that with Street Sense. Could be something, might be nothing. But I've seen enough of the wraps on angle as a warning sign in my life to be skeptical. Bluegrass Cat anyone?

Kasept 11-09-2006 02:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by randallscott35
As for the wraps comments before on Nafzger. He absolutely runs most of his horses in wraps all the time, as does Wilkes by the way. The difference here is that he didn't always do that with Street Sense. Could be something, might be nothing.

R.I.,

Go back in the thread.. The Cannon Shell guy, who seems to know a thing or two about Churchill doin's, says that Street Sense had a cut on his leg that Nafzger wanted covered for logical reasons...

lemoncrush 11-09-2006 02:37 PM

I think it's an interesting theory, and since I don't follow sheet numbers much, I'm interested to see how he turns out.
I have to agree it's a little premature to bury a horse that won so impressively.
We all know how difficult it is to predict a derby favorite this early, and I would guess we'll be talking about several other new contenders by the first of the year.

randallscott35 11-09-2006 02:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kasept
R.I.,

Go back in the thread.. The Cannon Shell guy, who seems to know a thing or two about Churchill doin's, says that Street Sense had a cut on his leg that Nafzger wanted covered for logical reasons...

As I said Steve, "could be nothing." If it was a cut, I guess it was nothing. Its something I pointed out in my original post which is something handicappers don't pay enough attention to in general.

The issue remains the number that was run and when it was run. He better be special to overcome that. Whether he is off 6 months or a year. I've seen enough of this to know he's up against it regardless of who his trainer is.

Time will tell.

Cajungator26 11-09-2006 02:48 PM

Guys, if I could chime in for a second...

Polo wraps do not provide the kind of support necessary to prevent an actual soft tissue injury. They are primarily used as protection from exterior damage (as in bumps, bangs, etc from other horses.) In order for a polo wrap to provide the kind of necessary support everyone is talking about here, it would have to be put on extremely tight and that kind of pressure can cause bandage bows (which is a bigger risk.) Just my opinion...

kentuckyrosesinmay 11-09-2006 03:27 PM

Actually, polo wraps protect a horse from splints, bucked shins, windpuffs, bruises...etc. Splints, windpuffs, and bucked shins cause temporary lameness, but can be seen as a blemish for the rest of a horse's life. Also, if wrapped right, polo wraps do provide support when they are hooked just behind the fetlock joint. They provide support of the flexor tendons. Also, no extremely good horseman will ever wrap the wraps tight enough as to bow a tendon. Every great hunter/jumper trainer and dressage trainer that I have ever seen uses them. I've wrapped hundreds of horses, and have never had one bow a tendon yet, and I'm not even worried about it because I know how to wrap...

Here is a list of all the soft tissue injuries that wraps may prevent...
http://www.umm.edu/orthopaedics/soft.htm

Also, it has come to my attention from a very knowledgable race tracker that wraps may actually slow down a horse a little bit, and it would make sense because the horse does not have quite as much flexibility in their fetlock joint. There is some slight tension and resistence at the joint from the wraps. Alot of the major trainers of the sport believe this (or so I've been told...but my source is reliable). Of course, I would never ever ever let that affect the way I bet a race, or me ever using wraps on my horses.

Also, a lot of racehorse trainers use wraps as a means of preventing burns on the bottom of a horse's fetlock joint when they are running in a race. This is especially true for horses who are a little coon footed (long in the pasterns), because these horses fetlock joints will touch the ground while they are running.

Okay, Im done now.

Cajungator26 11-09-2006 03:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kentuckyrosesinmay
Actually, polo wraps protect a horse from splints, bucked shins, windpuffs, bruises...etc. Splints, windpuffs, and bucked shins cause temporary lameness, but can be seen as a blemish for the rest of a horse's life. Also, if wrapped right, polo wraps do provide support when they are hooked just behind the fetlock joint. They provide support of the flexor tendons. Also, no extremely good horseman will ever wrap the wraps tight enough as to bow a tendon. Every great hunter/jumper trainer and dressage trainer that I have ever seen uses them. I've wrapped hundreds of horses, and have never had one bow a tendon yet, and I'm not even worried about it because I know how to wrap...

Here is a list of all the soft tissue injuries that wraps may prevent...
http://www.umm.edu/orthopaedics/soft.htm

Also, it has come to my attention from a very knowledgable race tracker that wraps may actually slow down a horse a little bit, and it would make sense because the horse does not have quite as much flexibility in their fetlock joint. There is some slight tension and resistence at the joint from the wraps. Alot of the major trainers of the sport believe this (or so I've been told...but my source is reliable). Of course, I would never ever ever let that affect the way I bet a race, or me ever using wraps on my horses.

Also, a lot of racehorse trainers use wraps as a means of preventing burns on the bottom of a horse's fetlock joint when they are running in a race. This is especially true for horses who are a little coon footed (long in the pasterns), because these horses fetlock joints will touch the ground while they are running.

Okay, Im done now.

I disagree, Jessica. I've been wrapping horses since I was 6 years old, so yeah, I know how to wrap as well and I haven't ever caused a bowed tendon either. It CAN happen, though and that is the primary reason that smart horsemen will not wrap their horses with POLO wraps while trailering (bandage bows.) As you know, there are different types of boots and leg protection gear to use while riding and while I personally use polo wraps during routine riding, I do so because of the protection they offer to the exterior of the horses leg (especially for horses who overreach, etc.) I use jumping boots, splint boots etc for actual support and my trainer will not "hook" polo wraps because there IS a risk in doing that, and when you've got eventers that are worth a quarter of a million buckaroos, you don't want to chance it. :D

Polo wraps got their name because they were originally popular among polo players. Their usefulness has long since expanded into most every other discipline. Polo wraps, usually made of cotton-blend fabric, offer wide-spectrum protection, depending on how they are used. People who use polo wraps like them because of their versatility, since different parts of the leg can be protected, depending on how they are applied. Using polo wraps, however, requires some experience, since a leg can be easily damaged by a wrap that has been applied improperly. They also require more maintenance than leg boots in order to maintain their usefulness and elasticity.

redransom 11-09-2006 03:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kentuckyrosesinmay
Actually, polo wraps protect a horse from splints, bucked shins, windpuffs, bruises...etc. Splints, windpuffs, and bucked shins cause temporary lameness, but can be seen as a blemish for the rest of a horse's life. Also, if wrapped right, polo wraps do provide support when they are hooked just behind the fetlock joint. They provide support of the flexor tendons. Also, no extremely good horseman will ever wrap the wraps tight enough as to bow a tendon. Every great hunter/jumper trainer and dressage trainer that I have ever seen uses them. I've wrapped hundreds of horses, and have never had one bow a tendon yet, and I'm not even worried about it because I know how to wrap...

Here is a list of all the soft tissue injuries that wraps may prevent...
http://www.umm.edu/orthopaedics/soft.htm

Also, it has come to my attention from a very knowledgable race tracker that wraps may actually slow down a horse a little bit, and it would make sense because the horse does not have quite as much flexibility in their fetlock joint. There is some slight tension and resistence at the joint from the wraps. Alot of the major trainers of the sport believe this (or so I've been told...but my source is reliable). Of course, I would never ever ever let that affect the way I bet a race, or me ever using wraps on my horses.

Also, a lot of racehorse trainers use wraps as a means of preventing burns on the bottom of a horse's fetlock joint when they are running in a race. This is especially true for horses who are a little coon footed (long in the pasterns), because these horses fetlock joints will touch the ground while they are running.

Okay, Im done now.

As a former racetrack groom, I'm here to tell you there's a giant difference between "wraps" and "bandages" and "rundowns" and where they all go and what they're all for.

Bandages in the true sense are what goes on a horse in his stall. Standing, sweats, poultices, spiders...

Wraps are usually used during training and are "polo" types, discussed above, or "tracers" which resemble ace bandages and are used for both protection and added support. Of course some also use tight vetwrap bandages on horses when training when the horse needs it; I was lucky to never have had one of them. I had a mare, who won a stakes at Ellis Park in 1997, who had some ankle issues and we used tracers on all fours for her and that was more than sufficient.

Oh and racing bandages are called "rundowns" when on hind legs and are, basically, vetwrap around the ankles and a rundown patch over the top (or back of the ankle, in this case.) I think this is what you were referring to when you mentioned preventing burns, which is called running down. For front bandages, which is what the "f" in the Form is for, it's the same thing, only wrapped tightly for support rather than prevention of running down, nine times out of 10. I've seen a horse or two actually run down in front, too. But it's rare...

Revolution 11-09-2006 04:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by redransom
As a former racetrack groom, I'm here to tell you there's a giant difference between "wraps" and "bandages" and "rundowns" and where they all go and what they're all for.

Bandages in the true sense are what goes on a horse in his stall. Standing, sweats, poultices, spiders...

Wraps are usually used during training and are "polo" types, discussed above, or "tracers" which resemble ace bandages and are used for both protection and added support. Of course some also use tight vetwrap bandages on horses when training when the horse needs it; I was lucky to never have had one of them. I had a mare, who won a stakes at Ellis Park in 1997, who had some ankle issues and we used tracers on all fours for her and that was more than sufficient.

Oh and racing bandages are called "rundowns" when on hind legs and are, basically, vetwrap around the ankles and a rundown patch over the top (or back of the ankle, in this case.) I think this is what you were referring to when you mentioned preventing burns, which is called running down. For front bandages, which is what the "f" in the Form is for, it's the same thing, only wrapped tightly for support rather than prevention of running down, nine times out of 10. I've seen a horse or two actually run down in front, too. But it's rare...

Thanks. That is good stuff.

Cajungator26 11-09-2006 04:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by redransom
As a former racetrack groom, I'm here to tell you there's a giant difference between "wraps" and "bandages" and "rundowns" and where they all go and what they're all for.

Bandages in the true sense are what goes on a horse in his stall. Standing, sweats, poultices, spiders...

Wraps are usually used during training and are "polo" types, discussed above, or "tracers" which resemble ace bandages and are used for both protection and added support. Of course some also use tight vetwrap bandages on horses when training when the horse needs it; I was lucky to never have had one of them. I had a mare, who won a stakes at Ellis Park in 1997, who had some ankle issues and we used tracers on all fours for her and that was more than sufficient.

Oh and racing bandages are called "rundowns" when on hind legs and are, basically, vetwrap around the ankles and a rundown patch over the top (or back of the ankle, in this case.) I think this is what you were referring to when you mentioned preventing burns, which is called running down. For front bandages, which is what the "f" in the Form is for, it's the same thing, only wrapped tightly for support rather than prevention of running down, nine times out of 10. I've seen a horse or two actually run down in front, too. But it's rare...

Thanks... very good info there. I had never heard of "tracers." :o

alysheba4 11-09-2006 04:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind
God, can you imagine if he had run his race?????

Could have been a negative 12!

.....negative smegative........horse got looked in the eye, and punched in the neck. a horse like g.z would have beat that group by 10.

blackthroatedwind 11-09-2006 04:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by alysheba4
.....negative smegative........horse got looked in the eye, and punched in the neck. a horse like g.z would have beat that group by 10.

Apparently identifying sarcasm is NOT one of your strong suits.

Revolution 11-09-2006 04:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by alysheba4
.....negative smegative........horse got looked in the eye, and punched in the neck. a horse like g.z would have beat that group by 10.

I am sure gz would have but considering he only raced 2.6x a year that doesn't say much for him.

Ghostzapper is just like Discreet Cat. Tons of talent and unable to stay healthy. That doesn't make for a great horse.

alysheba4 11-09-2006 04:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind
Apparently identifying sarcasm is NOT one of your strong suits.

.....right back at ya AL.

kentuckyrosesinmay 11-09-2006 06:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by redransom
As a former racetrack groom, I'm here to tell you there's a giant difference between "wraps" and "bandages" and "rundowns" and where they all go and what they're all for.

Bandages in the true sense are what goes on a horse in his stall. Standing, sweats, poultices, spiders...

Wraps are usually used during training and are "polo" types, discussed above, or "tracers" which resemble ace bandages and are used for both protection and added support. Of course some also use tight vetwrap bandages on horses when training when the horse needs it; I was lucky to never have had one of them. I had a mare, who won a stakes at Ellis Park in 1997, who had some ankle issues and we used tracers on all fours for her and that was more than sufficient.

Oh and racing bandages are called "rundowns" when on hind legs and are, basically, vetwrap around the ankles and a rundown patch over the top (or back of the ankle, in this case.) I think this is what you were referring to when you mentioned preventing burns, which is called running down. For front bandages, which is what the "f" in the Form is for, it's the same thing, only wrapped tightly for support rather than prevention of running down, nine times out of 10. I've seen a horse or two actually run down in front, too. But it's rare...

Thanks for the correct terminology red ransom. That's good stuff.

kentuckyrosesinmay 11-09-2006 06:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cajungator26
I disagree, Jessica. I've been wrapping horses since I was 6 years old, so yeah, I know how to wrap as well and I haven't ever caused a bowed tendon either. It CAN happen, though and that is the primary reason that smart horsemen will not wrap their horses with POLO wraps while trailering (bandage bows.) As you know, there are different types of boots and leg protection gear to use while riding and while I personally use polo wraps during routine riding, I do so because of the protection they offer to the exterior of the horses leg (especially for horses who overreach, etc.) I use jumping boots, splint boots etc for actual support and my trainer will not "hook" polo wraps because there IS a risk in doing that, and when you've got eventers that are worth a quarter of a million buckaroos, you don't want to chance it. :D

Polo wraps got their name because they were originally popular among polo players. Their usefulness has long since expanded into most every other discipline. Polo wraps, usually made of cotton-blend fabric, offer wide-spectrum protection, depending on how they are used. People who use polo wraps like them because of their versatility, since different parts of the leg can be protected, depending on how they are applied. Using polo wraps, however, requires some experience, since a leg can be easily damaged by a wrap that has been applied improperly. They also require more maintenance than leg boots in order to maintain their usefulness and elasticity.

Well, I was talking about using wraps on racehorses, not on horses who are shipping.

And what is the risk for hooking polo wraps? Please tell me. I would love to know because I am baffled from that statement. Also, as redransom said, racehorse trainers do have their horses fetlock joints hooked. Some of those animals are worth millions and millions. Take Afleet Alex for example. Tim Ritchey used to be a three day eventer, and he had Alex's rundowns hooked behind the fetlock joint.

In your second paragraph, you forgot to talk about how polo wraps add SUPPORT. I could find numerous articles by famous horsemen agreeing with me on this. I have learned everything I know through experience.

I use bell boots for horses overreaching. If you are riding animals who overreach so badly that they hit their cannon bones or ankle joint, then they aren't very high dollar or quality animals because they can't move.

redransom 11-09-2006 06:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kentuckyrosesinmay
Thanks for the correct terminology red ransom. That's good stuff.

I probably should have also said that many outfits, in fact, do use ace bandages for extra support, like Patrick Biancone for example. Real Aces, too, not the cheap generic ones. My best friend, Tom, groomed Lion Heart for a year (from when he came into the barn as a 2yo until after the Preakness) and used to roll Aces every night he crashed on my sofa looking for a night away from hovering over Lion Heart.

outofthebox 11-09-2006 07:54 PM

I dont know of any race track that allows horses running in races with polos, or did someone mention that already. Years ago in California we would use gelo casts under vet wrap or aces in the aide of more support. Well after a few trainers claimed these horses wearing the casts underneath the wraps, they complained to the racing board and it wasn't long before the rule of only vet wrap or similar designed products, and ace bandages were allowed for racing purposes..

Cajungator26 11-09-2006 07:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by outofthebox
I dont know of any race track that allows horses running in races with polos, or did someone mention that already. Years ago in California we would use gelo casts under vet wrap or aces in the aide of more support. Well after a few trainers claimed these horses wearing the casts underneath the wraps, they complained to the racing board and it wasn't long before the rule of only vet wrap or similar designed products, and ace bandages were allowed for racing purposes..

Thanks for the info...

It was my mistake in assuming they were talking about polo wraps.

redransom 11-09-2006 07:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by outofthebox
I dont know of any race track that allows horses running in races with polos, or did someone mention that already. Years ago in California we would use gelo casts under vet wrap or aces in the aide of more support. Well after a few trainers claimed these horses wearing the casts underneath the wraps, they complained to the racing board and it wasn't long before the rule of only vet wrap or similar designed products, and ace bandages were allowed for racing purposes..

Good catch on the gelo thing...

No polos for racing, that's still the same, but some still use gelos under vetwrap and aces (the latter for training only as I think vetwrap is the only approved bandage on raceday.) Truth be told, they don't check close enough before races to notice if a horse has a gelo under the vetwrap. Me personally, I've never worked for anyone who's used gelo under vetwrap, thank goodness, but lots of my pals have...

Pointg5 11-10-2006 07:05 AM

I don't care what they wrap him with, unless it's bubble wrap and they put away him until he is a 4yo...I would love to be wrong, because if he can get back to that number, he likely wins the Derby, but I think it's too much...

randallscott35 03-11-2007 04:59 PM

I'll Bump This So People Understand My Justification

ArlJim78 03-17-2007 05:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by randallscott35
Thorograph has their numbers posted for the entire card on Saturday. I encourage you to take a look at it.

One number jumped out. A Negative 2 by Street Sense in the juvenile even while being checked on the turn in the race.

I will go on record as saying this horse will not run a negative number in his entire 3 yr old year and very likely not again in his career. I am no fan of numbers like that this early. Mind you also that front wraps were added for this start as well. The ultimate squeeze the lemon scenario and I think he is finished. He is a bet against from here on out.

Well equalling a track record and winning right back after a long layoff I think is a fairly strong indication he's not finished yet. I don't know if that number will come back negative, but he certainly still looks capable of it.

It would take some kind of injury for him to not make it to the Derby starting gate and most likely he will be the morning line derby favorite.

mclem10011 03-17-2007 06:04 PM

Number.....
 
Should be strong, would not suprise me to see him ML fav, still a few preps to go though.

Coach Pants 03-17-2007 06:05 PM

Please take it easy on Randall. :D

ArlJim78 03-17-2007 06:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mclem10011
Should be strong, would not suprise me to see him ML fav, still a few preps to go though.

Well Randall's bold prediction was that Street Sense was finished, a bet against, would not start in the derby, would not ever win another GR1, and would never run a negative number again.

Yes there is still aways to go but I don't know how he doesn't make it to the derby.

magic_idol 03-17-2007 06:49 PM

I take it street sense won ?:confused:

randallscott35 03-17-2007 06:50 PM

Would this be bumped had he lost by a nose? If he ran up the track? I highly doubt it.

I'll stick to my call. He ran better than I thought he would today but with that trip he should win. Mind you the worst he could've been in this field had he run a nothing Beyer was second b/c the group was dreadful aside from Any Given....But, Was this a Grade 1? Nope, was that a negative number. Not a chance. The best number Any Given had run was a 2. Street Sense maybe ran a 2 with that ground saving trip. Came back in fronts which he shouldn't be needing....Still don't think he'll make the Derby, nor run a negative his 3 yr old season, nor win a Grade 1 the rest of his career....Let's wait to throw dirt on me until he does. K.

paisjpq 03-17-2007 06:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by magic_idol
I take it street sense won ?:confused:

yes he did...by a nose

magic_idol 03-17-2007 06:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by paisjpq
yes he did...by a nose

Thank you:)

ArlJim78 03-17-2007 06:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by randallscott35
Would this be bumped had he lost by a nose? If he ran up the track? I highly doubt it.

You bumped it yourself the other day to help me to understand why he is finished.

randallscott35 03-17-2007 06:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ArlJim78
You bumped it yourself the other day to help me to understand why he is finished.

I stand by it. He beat 1 horse today and ran better than I thought he would. That number as a two year old was the best ever for any juvenille winner. If he is the second coming of Secretariat he will show it.

And the sad thing is, I wasn't rooting against him in the least. Not at all. I think it would be great if a juvy winner could win the Derby....But if you follow Thoros and believe in them the call made sense. Nothing I saw today changes that.

ArlJim78 03-17-2007 07:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by randallscott35
I stand by it. He beat 1 horse today and ran better than I thought he would. That number as a two year old was the best ever for any juvenille winner. If he is the second coming of Secretariat he will show it.

And the sad thing is, I wasn't rooting against him in the least. Not at all. I think it would be great if a juvy winner could win the Derby....But if you follow Thoros and believe in them the call made sense. Nothing I saw today changes that.

Whoa!!! I never said he was the second coming of Secretariat.
I never said he will win the derby.

My only point was and still is that your call was not a good one since it was based primarily on a number and ignored some of the other circumstances.

I use thoro numbers too, but I do not use them in a such a mechanical way, I'm not a Thoro-lemming. For example; If horse A runs a neg 2 at two years old then X,Y, and Z outcomes are a certainty.


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