Timm and Skippy,
With all due respect, I do not wish to discuss the reasons why we are in Iraq,
the UN inspections, Lincoln, or what I had for dinner.
What is of concern is that the US military is currently in a situation in Iraq where some prominent generals (Tanor for example), and senators from both political parties have stated that there needs to be change.

In that 85 of our soldiers have been killed during this month, and conditions in Iraq continue to deteriorate, I'd rather hear your opinions concerning the direction that the US should take.
Simply put...let's not address how we became involved in Iraq, why, but rather...what do we do about our involvement there NOW?

DTS

Sure thing DTS,
See this is where the problem lies for presiden bush i think. I believe we need to send in more troops i heard 500,000 total from a couple of diffrent generals, to stablize the country, train the army, etc etc. I just don't see how this is going to happen. To much infighting in the parties. Both political parties would rather be right then to actually attack the situation and see to its resolve. I believe if we leave now we leave the country worse off then we started. Its like remodeling an old house. You tear into rip everything up, you can't leave now because the house is unliveable. You have to finish the job you started or the whole property becomes worthless. That being said there is no way that the democrats are going to let bush reinstate the draft, which is probably the only way to get the manpower we need.

Skippy,
Thanks for your response.
I agree that there will be a huge need for "boots on the ground".
My guess is that the 400K Iraqis we've trained, both as police and military will be given the task. No way will a draft be reinstated. It will be their turn.
Your metaphor about remodeling an old house is correct. I've done several.
You don't know what you'll find behind the wall after you rip out the old plaster and lath. Knob and tube wiring? Lead pipes? Rotted wood?
Seems to me, once the mess has been made, the choices are limited.
Fix it (whatever the cost) or move (and cut your losses).
We'll see how this shakes out.

I agree. Once you rip into the house you have very little left to to ponder. Very few choices remain. It becomes a screwed if you do screwed if you dont. I think what we really need to do is let the bipartisan generals in the field make the call. I dont care if your repub dem independent. If you arent there fighting, you have no clue whats going on. If you trust these people enough to appoint them, then you must rely on their decisions in battle.

DTS: Funny how your sense of humor gets a little thin sometimes. I asked about dinner because you usually take a break around this time. If you could explain to GR what a precedent is I'd appreciate it. Why couldn't you just have said the last 3 lines you wrote to skippy in the first place? Would have saved alot of time. Truthfully, I know what I'd like to see happen, but I would never presume to know the course this nation should take, because I don't know the real facts. It would help considerably if IRAQ wasn't a splintered group of misfits and 'warlords'. The whole region is so screwed up, but it is the Arabs vs the Israelis', make no mistake about that. I would like to speed up the Iraqi's ability to govern and protect itself from insurgents, but having a deadline for this is like telling your 17 yr old that he's on his own when he's turning 18..with no real prospects for success. It's an F'n mess, and the more I think about it the more it pisses me off. All of America is concerned(although one can never know) and alarmed, but calling the President a madman and war criminal is absurd. The problems with America were here long before we showed up, and that's a scary thought! Have our own chickens come home to roost? Maybe. But we need to be part of the solution, and help our disaffected younger genration do the same...or else there might not be many more generations.:(

Timm,
Thanks for a well thought response.
DTS

Timm, I'm aware of what precedents are, thank you. Under that logic, we should just lock up all the Arab Americans in internment camps because we did it to the Japanese. There's precedent, right?

I think what I am either explaining poorly or you are willfully misunderstanding is that Lincoln was WRONG to have suspended habeus corpus. The section of the Constitution that addresses it is the section outlining Congress's powers, not the President's. The President does not have the right as the Constitution is written; only Congress. And it seems to me the fact that Bush saw necessary to ramrod a law through Congress indicated Bush knew full well he didn't have the authority to do it on his own and needed his patsy Congress to pass a disgraceful law to give him authority to ignore the Constitution. And it's a sad day for this nation that people will say, "Well, Lincoln did it!" and think that should make it right. Lincoln didn't free the slaves in the United States; he freed the slaves in the Confederacy only, which, technically, did not consider itself the United States anymore. So that makes him a man who endorsed slavery in his own nation. Does that make him a bad President? No; he was a great one. Was it a bad decisions to endorse slavery in the loyal states? From a moral standpoint, of course it was.

And again, this happened 140 years ago...

So... what'd you have for breakfast? :) I had cereal and milk.

I'm a bit confused by this...does it mean that "stay the course" means no longer staying the course, or is it just "cutting and running" from doublespeak?

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...102301053.html

Interesting press conference. The generals speak.
Find the words "political solution" rather than "military".

http://www.andnetwork.com/index?serv...tory&sp=l54407

GR: Had to take my son to LAX for travel to England...Had JITB Breakfast sandwiches on the way back(YUM). I was hoping that you knew what a precedent was(I knew you did,but you were just being a lib). I don't know the circumstances of Lincolns' play, and I do know that it is Congress' baliwick. My understanding is that the law has restrictions and checks/balances included, so that your favourite cowboy can't run roughshod over AMERICANS. Not so with the foreign enemy combatants. Maybe when I'm more familiar with the law I can comment on it. I think the internment camps are our country's biggest shame(pretty much bar none). My only statement in Lincolns' defense is that the country had never been in civil war and he did what he thought he had to do. As with Bush,both were faced with situations never encountered before in the halls of Government. I'm tired now, so I'll talk to you later! Have a good one! Timm

Total BS. Diseases dont willingly think of killing people. If you cant fathom the weapons that are now available compared to the Civil War, I feel for you. You have no idea how society as we know it could be changed in an instant. Rich people dying from a Nuclear Weapon... where in Gods name did you think up this horse sh it?

How do you think the Africans in Dafur are going to die? Why do they flee? Because of weapons that can kill a whole village easily. A group of 10 armed men can wipe out a whole village. They could kill 10,000 people easily. So they flee into a few wretched spots and starve. Do you think people still kill each other with rocks?

One good nuke in the hands of the Iranian leader... For God's sake... You dont remember the fear of the Cold War. Clueless in St. Louis.

Hey, Timm; hope your son had an easy flight and a good time in England (I loved my two visits there). The problem with the "Well, the gov't can't pick up American citizens" argument against this new law I believe I addressed earlier, but I'll rehash it-- if the government would say, pick you up and jail you for being an "enemy combatant" how the hell are you going to get anyone to listen to your claims that you are an American citizen and this is a mistake? You're not permitted access to legal counsel; you won't be told the charges against you and in fact, they can hold you as long as they like without bringing the charges. So how are you going to get anyone to listen to you? You're not. You really think this government is going to be absolutely infallible with this new authority? How many innocent people have we put into Guantanamo and Abu Gihraib (which I can never seem to spell)? Even one is too many if it's your own self. Are you willing to be locked up "accidentally" for three years because the government made a mistake in the name of fighting terrorism? Are you willing to be waterboarded for a mistake? Are you willing to see your family locked up and waterboarded for a mistake? Because if you're not willing to kiss three years of your own life goodbye, or that of your son's, or your wife's, then you don't have any business thinking this law is just or right or fair.

I can't even address the "well, it's just for foreigners" on the moral grounds because it's so very upsetting to me that anyone would stand by and think being held without access to legal counsel is acceptable for non-citizens. Please let me know how you feel about the thought of your son being picked up in a foreign nation (he's in one now, right?) and held for years without access to counsel because he's not a citizen. America-- "If it doesn't affect myself directly, then f*ck it."

Terrorism isn't an opponent; it's a tactic. It was used by Timothy McVeigh, by every man who has shot doctors, by the Atlanta bomber and by the right-winger who sent envelopes with white powder to Democratic government officials (remember that?). It's a tactic. Not an opponent. But until recently, our terrorists were all home-grown so we ignored them. And Bush and his cronies have seized on the first attack by foreigners on our soil as justification to take away the balance of power in this nation. And we've all stood back and let them.

Look, anyone who is pleased with these developments, may I suggest China? You get your authoritarian government AND they aren't as deeply in debt as we are. In fact, China has lent us a ton of money. Grab it, guys! Your chance to be in on the next superpower, since democracy doesn't seem to be the Republicans' cup of tea anymore. And you won't have to listen to nasty, whiny dissenters, since really, they're all traitors anyway! What are you waiting for? Same government, better economy!

In the meantime, how was lunch? :) (leftover fried rice and oatmeal cookies, here)

Sorry to those who saw I double-posted; I finally figured out how to delete. Same message, but once is plenty.

Genuine Risk,
Here is the link to the Military Commissions Act of 2006. S3930.
On page four you'll might note section C, "Determination of Unlawful Enemy Combatant Status", and who makes the determination.

http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/z?c109:S.+3930:

btw, I've read the Constitution of The United States many times. The powers of each of the three branches of government are clearly stated.
The Legislative branch makes laws. The Executive branch executes (enforces) them.

I hope that those that doubt what you've said take the time to read the Military Commissions Act of 2006.

And now, back to the topic....

http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story/0,,1930700,00.html

It is my understanding that counsel is available and a tribunal will decide if you're to be held. GR: you play out to the worst case scenario...that's not gonna change my opinion. My sympathies do not lie with those at Gitmo and Abu Graib(they are noted,however) My concern is that the efforts to stop Extremist factions,groups and the like aren't hindered, and that our efforts to protect our Homeland people are successful. It's been well documented that our leaders aren't infallible,but that's not going to stop me from supporting their efforts to keep America safe. You get to vote....all of us do. If you think appeasement and fawning over our enemies is the way to go, then good luck at the ballot box! The last 3 paragraphs are unconscionable,especially coming from you. One more precious drop of blood spilled is unacceptable....so whatever it takes to stem the tide! Laws(especially wartime laws) are for the lawbreakers. Woe unto them. Dinner was pizza!

Well,
I guess the folks in Maine are equally confused.
To quote, "Nuts". Real people that live in a very difficult place.

http://pressherald.mainetoday.com/vi...025stein.shtml

Finally got "clarification".
Now I know what "stay the course" means.
I also think I know what "cut and run" is about.
I'm still trying to make distinctions between "benchmarks" and "time lines"...
heck, there must be others that understand "doublespeak" better than I do.
If you can...translate into "plain English". Thanks.
Here's the "clarification" on "stay the course".


http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2006/...n2122103.shtml

And another article about "stay the course". Surprisingly, if you read the last paragraph concerning the Dems, in which I agree with the author, you might fine a tidbit of truth.
Sorry...it's from common dreams but still worth reading.

http://www.commondreams.org/views06/1027-24.htm

DTS: Mark your Calendar...I mostly agree with this one! I would hope that Bushs' 10/11 clarification and the week or so addition would be the real deal. However, the middle part of the article is like trying to psycho-analize every minute detail....I think that's unhealthy and somewhat playing to the audience! It would be such a treat for BOTH Parties to 'define' themselves, so as to avoid further confusion.

Wow Timm!
We really DO agree.
Both parties are playing us.
The Repubs for the confusion about "doublespeak" ( I won't even mention "Clear Skies" and "Healthy Forests")...and the Dems for not putting anything out besides waiting for default.
When I play "pinball"...it's called "TILT"!!
At this point, I don't think either party will "define themselves, so as to avoid further confusion".
Shamed to say, we're all being played as suckers.
TILT!

I think the 'status quo' is just fine for both parties...and that sickens me! It would be a dream come true for a Viable 3rd Party candidate(that has a chance in Hell of winning). After you get up off the floor ...you may comment!:D

LMAO!
I'll have to think about this one.
Is the "Bull Moose Party" still around? And is Teddy R back from the taxidermist?
Could be a play.

We could find a place for that Teddy!

Bring back Ross Perot.

19% of the popular vote in 1992.

He'd probably do better in 2008.

That old bastard cost Bush the election! So much for Clintons' mandate from the people! But I don't wanna start anything...I'm looking for a quiet weekend!

Yeah, but the conservatives got their payback in '00 when Nader cost Gore the election. What goes around comes around. Stupid Nader.

Which is not to interrupt your quiet weekend, Timm! I spent both days working, pbbbttt. Hope yours was more relaxing.

GR,
I really hope your weekend went better than mine. What a storm! Big maples came down twice.
It took out my phone, ripped down my electric service, and my cable tv.
I spent all weekend making friends with my trusty, dusty chainsaw.
There ain't no relaxing around here.
Thankfully, I didn't get hurt with all the bother.
Hey, if I live in a beautiful place, I just have to be willing to accept the good with the bad.
I just wish my back could feel a little better...but, dang, I have plenty of firewood for my woodstove and fireplace.
Things here are "almost" back to normal...what ever that is.
I wish our great country could get to that point.
I'm getting tired of all the kids (101 as of today), getting wasted before they can live a long and happy life.
They are gone, and I pray for their souls.
I also pray for their families.
It is a horrible loss for all involved.

It takes time to bring resolution to all the storms.
In a belief I've always held, the storms end, and repairs are required.
Sad to say, sometimes, despite our best efforts, there are some that wish to create more thunder...more "shock and awe".

Anyway, Timm and I are getting along better since we've pm'd each other.
Keep on keeping on.
You can't convince everyone of the tragedy, especially when their own kid isn't invested.
Pray for the lost kids, and all the wounded if you are so inclined.
Keep speaking your truth, though it seems at times that those that have "deaf ears" refuse to hear.
I also pray for sanity. What we have "bought" is nowhere close.
What's going on currently, policy and deceit-wise, goes against everything I
I ever held to be true and right.
Peace!!!! Please! Peace before these people destroy us further.
DTS

DTS: So...you went 'camping' this weekend? Sorry to hear about the damage ...and the extra work! The trees.....real old and beautiful,huh? Getting back to normal? For you, it's probably a 'done deal'! As for our country, We both agree that the 'status quo' sucks, but the layers of change will take time,don't you think? We can only 'fight the fight' til resolution comes, as Deception is everywhere. I'm really starting to believe people don't have the luxury to 'sit on the sidelines' anymore! Anyway...rest a bit and enjoy the fruits of your labor. PS..I'll be prayin for your sanity too,lol!

You two guys-- I really like both of you and am glad things settled down. One of the things I love about this board-- it's one of the few places people of all different political bents will actually TALK to each other, rather than retreating to boards where they only have to agree with like-minded people.

I do agree with you Timm, that politics, when it's working best, tends to make things better veeeeerrrrry slowly, and I think there's a lot of fixing to be done, which is going to be frustrating because it's going to take a long time.

Hey GR,
I hope your back is mending. Taking a tumble is never fun. Take it easy, and if thepain doesn't go away in a few days, see a doc.

Timm,
Looks like this mess isn't getting solved anytime soon. I have difficulty believing that our president is still cheerleading us, trying to convince us that we're "winning". I wish we were but that's not reality.
I've learned some powerful lessons from those beautiful trees that came down over the weekend. Some are that they endure through the storms (ususally). When they get hit too hard by they come crashing down.
Then they yield the fuel to create warmth, and in the following spring, their the trunks of those that remain are hung with buckets to boil down into sweet syrup.
I hope that metaphor makes sense.
I just hope that there is resolution to the storm that our great country has been sold. The brave kids that serve are not firewood, though I'm sure they're working for "regime change". I think that rather than imposing "democracy" on others in the Mideast, "regime change" needs to happen right here in the USA.
That which we feared most from the "terrorists" has been done to us, not from outside forces, but from those inside.
Our great country will indeed recover from the storm. It will take time.
And I agree with you that we can no longer rely on others to make it so.
Our "freedom isn't free".
Peace,
DTS

Hey, guys; conservative columnist Andrew Sullivan posted this letter from a liberal reader on his website. It was in response to a comment he'd made that conservatives' anger ran "deeper" than liberals lately. It's actually quite a nice letter, and I think sums up a lot of what seems to be going through a lot of people's heads, conservative and liberal alike. And reminds me that first and foremost, we're all Americans and want what's best for our beloved nation.

I myself have watched Sullivan go from cheerleader to angry opponent of the Bush regime over the past few years, and I feel for him. He's a genuine conservative, and this has been hard for him. He writes a good blog, too: andrewsullivan.com. Anyway, here's the letter:

<<Why do you think the anger of the left - the decent left - is any less than yours? Do you think we feel less betrayed? Wrong. Do you think we are less betrayed? Wrong.

Do I blame you for being mad? Not a bit. But keep in mind that those of us on the left who saw this (the Iraq WMD deception) coming - and saw a hundred other issues coming, from abrogation of the wall between church and state to the ballooning deficit - we have spent the last five years being called every ugly, vicious name in the book because we tried to stop this, because we tried to warn the American people: haters, traitors, pussies, weenies, liars, partisans, hacks, wacks, radicals, commies, atheists, morally confused, mentally challenged and anything, anything except patriots who love this country and everything it stands for - or ought to stand for. Even the name "liberal", that honorable word, has been made into a curse. So don't tell me the anger of the betrayed and decent right and center is deeper. Just tell us thanks for keeping the faith, for fighting the good fight. Just for once, call us brothers and sisters.

And remember: don't get mad. Get even. Keep speaking out. When you explain how you see classic conservatism as the defense of liberty from brutality through doubt, caution, common sense and rigorous self-examination, when you show how our Declaration of Independence and our Constitution are classic small-c conservative documents, you build a ground for dialog between left and right and a way out of this mess.

I do not agree with all your views on particular policies - but that's not necessary, because I respect and trust your good intentions and good faith, your essential humility and humanity - and I've seen you grow and change over the years, often, as now, with considerable pain. That's to be respected, and it's why I advise all liberals to give "The Conservative Soul" (Sullivan's latest book) a read; it's well worth it. In any case, we agree on the bedrock issues, which utterly transcend left and right. We can agree to disagree on particular policies here and there - and get on with it. The challenges we face in the coming years - from global warming to nuclear proliferation to economic instability - will require us to meet on common ground.>>