If this was directed towards me, that is not the case at all. You are assuming that I have ideas that I don't actually hold. You implied in your post that the first horses did not run on sand, and that just isn't true. I was just pointing out that the first hot-blooded horses were those that ran on desert sand, not on grass or polytrack. Sure, we've selectively bred Thoroughbreds for increased speed throughout the decades. But, that doesn't not change the fact that the first horses ran on sand. Also, the species of Equus caballus is a lot more than 400 years old.

I stand firm against polytrack because I believe that there are better ways to handle the issue of breakdowns in racehorses. All polytrack does is cover up the REAL problems of racing like breeding, drugs, and crooked training and management methods.

LOL!!! Thanks for making my point Titan, and Joels as well without realizing it.
When artificial turf came about the teams(baseball and football) and league were sold on it the same EXACT way that the tracks have been sold on Poly. They were told of no maintenance costs, and convinced that it would be just as safe as grass.
Funny that almost every stadium that put in has ripped it out, and that all new stadiums built use grass. The only holdovers being domes with no retractable roofs.
If you don't see the irony of that, well.........................

Im sorry but I cant forsee markets like you can. I am not MR. Wallstreet. Did dirt racing ruin turf racing?

Then don't tell me God created thoroughbreds to run on dirt and grass when God created no such thing. WE created thoroughbreds to run the way they do and things change so get a grip with YOUR CRAP.

No, thats not what I'm saying, genius...follow along little Joey:

God gave frogs long tongues to catch their prey, he gave lizards a green/camillian (sp?) complextion to hide from its predators, he gave bears long claws to hunt in the wild and creeks for food, ETC. ETC. ETC..... could go on for days.....

In terms of MOBILITY, he gave fish fins to swim through their climate, which is water, HE GAVE HORSES THE HOOVES AND BIO-MECHANICS TO RUN OVER DIRT AND GRASS, PERIOD....

Understand now? :rolleyes:

I'm not completely sold on the surface being safer. The way some horses have been slipping and sliding at Keeneland it's only a matter of time before a major spill happens.

Hopefully then the silent majority will speak up.

It wasn't a BUSINESS back then like it is now. If you don't realize that, there is no point in discussing it.

Well, I do think that polytrack prevents breakdowns, but we have dirt surfaces here in the United States that are pretty safe as well. Of course, no surface is going to prevent EVERY horse from breaking down. Heck, I've had horses break down just playing around in the pastures before.

Irony. Oracle you just pulled your own.
Now you just ruined your own point by bringing up injuries. Grass in football has been brought back mainly because of injuries. Oracle, you did exactly what you claimed what someone else did. Ruin your own point. The initial results do look like polytrac may be best for the safety of the animals. But I withold on this. To little data still. But it clearly is leaning one way at present.

Quote by Gary Stevens was that last spring he saw a lotta sore horses in the back end at Turfway.
yeah, you avoid breakdowns and deaths ON THE TRACK.
But vets are working overtime with back ends, and tendons and suspensories that get ruined don't make the papers as breakdowns.
Theres a lotta propaganda out there.
I think Himmler is handling the PR on this deal.

Turf racing in the United States is comparable to the bench of a basketball team. The stars play on the dirt. Changing all of the dirt tracks to poly is like the NBA installing clay courts.

YOu talk to a lotta trainers and owners about hind end problems, and tendons do you?
Obviously not. You read what you read, and call it a fact.
You don't know the whole story.

I have an ENORMOUS financial interest in the breeding industry and I rely on my knowledge - that I've worked very hard to attain - to breed my horses. My dad invested a lot of money in this game on my confidence and now i have to go back and tell him that his advisor will just be guessing based on no feel or statistics when i choose the breeds forn his mares this year. If you owned $600,000 in horses would you want to hear that lack of faith from your advisor?

And don't knick me, I'd put my knowledge up against most when it comes to pedigrees and breeding imperfections out of horses and qualities into horses....I've talked to many bloodtsock agents who have NO clue as to what will perform over this crap....

What's god got to do with any of this??

and they've now created artificial surfaces that are much closer to the real thing.. it took some time but they've found it. I'm certain that the artificial race track will evolve the same way and trainers will find methods to be more effective on it.

Again, if I do not accept the polytrack then I am going to be SOL on playing the horses out here on California which is not something I'm ready to do. Some might not want to play it, and that's their choice.

In a few years I think that everything will be just fine. Those that do not want to play will stop, those that continue to play will learn, and new blood will be brought into the game.


And God will be happy that we are treating his precious Thoroughbred much better.

Not to mention trainers who have virtually no idea either.

Wait a minute. It was not/is not a business in Europe, Japan, and Hong Kong? Holy sh it you got a story. You guys are digging in deeper.

New blood isn't coming NOW!!!!!!!! THATS THE BIGGEST PROBLEM WE HAVE!!!!! WHAT THE HELL MAKES YOU THINK NEW BLOOD WILL COME IF WE DESTROY THE FINANCIAL STRUCTURE!!!??????

She'll only lose by 11, they'll all be plodding home in the end.

I sympathize with your situation, I truly do. But in all honesty, having such financial interest in the industry, you should have been as best prepared as you could for this change when it was announced a few years ago.

I think that the better breeds still drop the fastest horses, regardless of racing surface, some breeds will rise, some will fall, but overall I do not think there will be a major change of tides in the breeding industry.

[quote=pgardn]Wait a minute. It was not/is not a business in Europe, Japan, and Hong Kong? Holy sh it you got a story. You guys are digging in deeper.[/Q
When did they switch to all dirt racing? You are over your head Patrick. What you know about this business you could write on the back of a postage stamp and have room left over.
If you care to debate any specific fine point of it, you'll get mulched.

Oracle you got a story then. We need you to write an article with sources (you gotta em all) that polytrack has more of an injury down side than dirt. And when did I say anything was a FACT. Read my post buddy. When did I write the word Fact?

Do you believe he created you? Do you believe he created horses? If not, I understand....you don't apply to this conversation if you don't believe in your creator....It requires that basis to drive my arguement home....the 'Big Bang' theory doesn't work here....

Hehe. To each his own. This is changing every aspect of the game.

[quote=oracle80]I dont need to debate any fine point. You just dissed a poster about injuries on a football field, and then did the same thing yourself with horses. Logic. How much of that fits on the back of a postage stamp?

And its guys like you who get stuck in ruts and cant handle change...you my friend will be the odd man out. If you cant roll with the punches, get out of the ring. I personally do not have a conclusive opinion about the stuff as I said before. You do. So write your story bud. And quit writing stuff that I did not post.

Thanks for the advice, Socrates :rolleyes: ...I suppose all of those men and women wearing our colors fighting over in Iraq right now should have been better prepared with their lives a few years ago too, right :rolleyes:

Our beliefs about a creator are 100% irrelevant to the Polytrack situation... if this is your the way you need to go to justify your angle, then you probably should refrain from replying to any of my posts any longer....

Pgard,
If you can please answer as many of these questions as possible.

1) What is the average cost of maintaining a thoroughbred horse including vet bills, day rate by a trainer, shipping, and shoeing per year?

2) What percentage of owners show a profit on horses strictly through racing?

3) What is the formula for determining value of a sire before a stud deal is done?

4) Since the reformed tax legislation in the 80's which reversed the previous practice of being able to write off all horse racing business losses along with all other business losses, has ownership increased or decreased in thoroughbred horses?

What in the hell is wrong with you?

Can you stay within the subject at hand?

It's very difficult to have a discussion with someone who cannot stay focused on the topic of the discussion.

Only scientologists would approve of a switch to polytrack. Heck if they had it their way the only people who could ride horses would be a minimum of a 7th level thetan.

Really, so lets get this straight then....God built fish to swim though rubber, he built birds to fly through rubber and he built horses to run through rubber, right?

:rolleyes:

There isn't anything worse than a guy who is a novice at best telling guys who aren't everything that they supposedly don't know.
It would be like me attempting to teach you about Physics Patrick.

that's the dumbest, most disrespectful post I've ever read.

in fact, it's downright retarded.

This post proves my point in the fact that you cannot keep your attention level long enough on the subject at hand in order to have a decent, fruitful debate.

I think the point is that you can't always plan for stupidity, extreme measures, and propoganda. I see direct parallels in both situations.

He has every right to be emotional about the subject. The comparison is a little extreme but I completely understand the point he is making.

Lets face it, sometimes change isn't good.

Go through my posts and show me where I have not said anything that was not on point?

Really, see I thought it was disrespectful for somebody who obviously has an elementary knowledge of the game that I should have "better prepared for the change to Polytrack" a few years ago. How in the HELL do you do that? Comon Buzz Chace, teach me!!! :rolleyes:

Would you be prepared if an earthquake erupted in the earth directly under your house right now?.....What a moron :eek:

No, it just proves to me that you don't have a comeback sharp enough to counter my logic....give it up, homie...

I disagree. People are dying over there for us. Him worried about his career in the breeding business may be a problem, as we have all had career problems, but he's going to be ok.

dumb.dumb.dumb