I do remember when you had Baffert on your show in the weeks before Hollywood was closing, he said the reason he hated that it was closing the most, was he loved training horses over the racing surface. He said it was a great racing/training surface. So too bad that SoCal racing lost that surface (and of course the track itself) for reasons not having to do with the surface. I probably wouldn't be whining as much about the Del Mar switch if Hollywood was still open.

Excerpt from the recent Bloodhorse article
http://www.bloodhorse.com/horse-raci...-era-nears-end
Does Dr. Mick Peterson have a bias towards synthetics when offering his opinion? I'm just saying it looks like he's poking a hole in Joe Harper's explanation.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but Turfway was the first to install synthetic (poly) in the U.S. They replaced their synthetic surface a year into it, to perfect the formula after it wasn't holding up to the harsh winter conditions. Since then, link me an article saying where they've had issues? Yes they still have cancellations due to weather, but I don't think it's due to track condition as much as it's due to the weather just being to shitty in general. When did

Did Woodbine have to replace or repair theirs? I also like that Woodbine specifically tells you between which races they treat/groom their track.

but another issue is climate. southern cal is far different from woodbine and turfway. what works in one area geographically and climate wise won't necessarily work elsewhere.

Thing about those tracks with "randomness" is most of the horses that races at those tracks have established form over the surface. Woodbine horses at least the past few years don't need to ship away from their track much because they had such awesome purses before the ONT government yanked that away. Will be interesting to see if it's the same now. The major randomness at Woodbine with with those ONT state-bred maidens and allowances. If you don't know much about their local sires you don't have much to go on, but that's not a surface issue. Those races would be just as random on dirt.

As for Keeneland. The awesome thing with that place is it's always been random. Big wide-open fields. When they replaced dirt there, they actually leveled off the stretch and got rid of the speed bias. The stretch went slightly downhill when it was dirt. Now horses with established synthetic form will ship in to race there because they have solid form over a similar surface (a big part being from your favorite, Presque Isle).

Is it as much randomness as it is full competitive fields? Hmmm.... I think that same level of competition continued to happen at Del Mar after they installed their synthetic surface.

let me reiterate a couple things that may have gotten lost in this debate-

I'm with you guys that I was skeptical that changing to synthetic surfaces would have any impact on horse safety numbers. I think it was a waste. But I learned to adapt and even embrace race meets with synthetic. There have been stats and studies that have proven these surfaces are slightly safer, right?

I treat a synthetic surface as a completely independent 3rd surface different from dirt and turf. That's why I've had success with it. That's probably stating the obvious to some of you, but to those who hate it, I wonder if you have yet made that separation?

For those listing all the horses that have all of a sudden woken up running on the surface as it being some sort of side show, that they're worthless because they can't hack it on dirt-
Do you give those same dirt failures crap if they end up having a solid turf career? Is Wee Miss Artie a failure if he runs up the track in the Fountain of Youth but ends up being a good turf horse?

If African Story goes onto win the Dubai World Cup this year, since he's been a monster at Meydan at almost every start there, but never does anything else is he worthless to you?

Are you really just butt-hurt that Swiss Yodeler's value is diminshed, but some random sire named Bartok is worth a lot now because of synthetics?

Just saying, I think the people that don't mind the synthetics are people that see it's value as an independent 3rd surface

you'd have to think a horse wouldn't be very valuable if he only can run on a couple of tracks, because poly is going the way of the dodo.
has nothing to do with butt hurt. has everything to do with recognizing what the move to poly was all about and viewing it as a complete waste to do so, since the results are pretty much what the people against the changes were expecting.
it was a grand, and failed experiment. horses who are producing synthetic specialists will see their demand go away, because who wants to breed horses for a surface that is going back out of existence.

I've never seen someone defend synthetics so vociferously. No one's saying that there aren't handicapping angles that can be used to success on synth, but there is an undeniable amount of randomness that occurs, particularly at KEE where horses are shipping in from all different surfaces and figuring out who's going to transfer their form (or jump up 30 points) is like throwing darts blindfolded. You need look no further than the list of Blue Grass winners since KEE switched to know that a track which was once the proving grounds for great horses has become one that elevates mediocrities to stars. It's bad for racing and diminishes the amount of ability it takes to win a Grade 1 on dirt or turf when a horse that would've otherwise been a 25k claimer wins the freaking Blue Grass or Spinster b/c none of the other horses could transfer their form to a joke surface.

Do I have to return my Joha poster?

When Joha wins the Canadian this weekend, it'll be worth more ;)

Ateam,

When horses ship to Keeneland from Presque Isle, Turfway, Arlington, Woodbine, SoCal they have proven form over synthetic surfaces so I don't see that as randomness. When a horse ships in to Del Mar having proven success st Hollywood or GG, there's not much randomness there. The randomness at Keeneland, Del Mar, and Saratoga isn't the surface, its you have quality horses coming from all points to make the fields wide open

Once again don't mistake what I'm saying as being a total apologist for the surface, but there's room for both in US racing. And the safety numbers? They seem to back up synths

But the Canadian is on a real surface, not Poly...Poly is similar to betting on horses swimming. We just need a big pool. RH10 could be the skimmer.

You're really comparing Keeneland's polytrack and the absurdity it produces to Saratoga? Come on. It's not because of the shippers, it's because that track is different than pretty much anything the shippers run on. There's no equation between one synth track to the next.

umm yeah I am. Boutique meets have big fields and wide open races because horses ship in from all over. It'll be true for Keeneland whether they have dirt or synth.

And some synth tracks act differently than others, but I'm still gonna take a horse in a synth race that has synth success at any other track over one that doesn't. The results do seem to carry over to different tracks. That's why the past few years you've seen Presque Isle shippers do very well at Keeneland. They have a proven record over another synthetic track.

you admitted just a few posts ago that you bet on horses swimming all the time. Must be due to the "randomness"

All I'm saying is, you guys act like Del Mar is getting rid of the black plague it once had, and horse racing is slowly eradicating it. There are a lot bigger issues with the sport, and I think the one with synth tracks is uber overblown. C'mon ATeam, when Keeneland starts up in April, let's go in on some picks ;) you know you're gonna play it as hard as anywhere else you play.

Yes. It's a problem. I agree. Thankfully I will have more dirt in my future

Nah, I'm not. If there's one thing that gives me success, it's discerning between good betting opportunities and lousy ones. Until KEE goes back to dirt at least half their races are bad bets generally.

He wasnt a breeding mistake was he?

I dont believe people consider synthetic surfaces an issue, just an annoyance. I'm sure that expense is the chief reason that Del Mar is returning to dirt since they admit that their track needs to be overhauled. The fact that most racing people prefer dirt probably makes the decision even easier

I meant horses bred based on synthetic success. So yes if he waters down the breed it becomes a mistake

It was a cheap attempt at patting myself on the back however there is no such thing as "watering the breed down" when it is contracting at a rapid rate. Being that both sides of his pedigree are distinctly grass influenced and he is not exactly by a well regarded or popular sire of sires I'm sure his impact on the breed will be minimal.

Anyway the debate is now over because Bill Finley has weighed in with a typically arrogant Op-ed piece in TDN that mocks those who are not upset about the demise of synthetic tracks. Being that Finley is almost always wrong in a way that makes PG1985 look like Nostradamus we can now move on with our lives.

I think the track is unfrozen to the point that I actually have to do some work...

It adds up. A horse like pioneer of the Nile should only be seeing my tool shed these days. Slopped up slow derby second and marginal shredded tire running success. Maybe pony rides.

Uh didnt Pioneer of the Nile just sire 2 Derby prep winners on the dirt?

Breeding is about genetics, not track surface, not medication. A horse by a "turf sire" or out of a "dirt" mare is more likely to share the physical attributes that their parents had which will drive their ability to preform on certain surfaces but as evidenced in a million cases, it doesn't limit them to success solely on that particular surface.

Yes. They can all throw something that can outperform on a given surface. See boundary and big brown. Still think syn form is useless for breeding purposes

Is European form useless as well because they often run the wrong way on waterlogged bogs which is as foreign to American horses as synthetic surfaces?

Turf is a real surface. Always has been. Now you are arguing for the sake of it.

I'm not arguing at all. Just pointing out the folly of believing that synthetic surfaces have any effect on the breed. Your hypothesis is has no basis. Because a sire or dam won on synthetics has no bearing on their ability to produce talented progeny.

No he is arguing because Pioneerof the Nile is quality thoroughbred regardless of surface.

Okay you don't like the synth surface but to relegate all that had success over it to your tool shed is pretty silly.

http://www.thoroughbreddailynews.com...uyaRZ0.twitter

"Del Mar is going back to dirt and you ought to be at
least a little bit upset. It's hard to say you really care
about the safety of these animals if you're not."
-Bill Finley (aka GOD)



Personally I have mixed feelings about synthetic surfaces drawn from the actual experience of training and racing over several of them. They are certainly useful when you get a ton of rain. They are certainly crappy when you dont. They are at times uneven and biased like every other surface. They cause a lot of foot issues along with soft tissue injuries. The stats that lead Finley to bemoan that the majority of people with an opinion (both bettors and horsemen) don't prefer them are not entirely kosher. Being that Woodbine, Del Mar, Hollywood Park, Golden Gate, Arlington Park and Keeneland along with Presque Isle and Turfway are the only tracks that make up the synthetic stats (I know SA briefly, did i forget anyone?), it is hardly an accurate representation of American dirt racing. Golden Gate has a miniscule starters per race number. Only Turfway races in the Winter. Hollywood, Del Mar, Woodbine and to a lesser extend Arlington have top grade horse populations especially compared to all dirt Penn national, Turf Paradise, any Texas track, any Ohio track, Suffolk, any WV track, any NM track, Timonium, etc. Just using raw data without regard to the class of horses, weather conditions , etc makes the number quite flawed.

But hey Bill says you are a bad person for being happy that a top meet would bow down the the wishes of its horsemen and bettors...

Of course he lets the tracks, Del Mar and Keeneland (who just said they would remain on poly), off the hook because he might have to grovel to them for advertising money...


ps- I rarely bet synthetic races either