That one sucks too, because didn't Gary get the call while at lunch with Jason Orman?

You've voiced your opinion about how people can trounce on you in the business too. (stallion seasons) Sure it was the owner's right and sure it is business, but it still sucks.

Well I mean why the venom at Todd then? What exactly has he done wrong here?
A guy called him up and said we are making a trainer switch on the horse, will you take him? Only a fool wouldn't. If he had said no, they woulda called another guy. Someone was gonna get him, may as well have been him.

I think the general venom (not all but most ) is directed toward the owners...of course they probably made the right business decision for the horse and of course todd would be a fool to turn the horse down...but business or not, it's a sh*tty human being that pulls a horse with ten minutes notice JMO.

I think his inability to get the horse to quit being rank certainly didn't help matters any.
Like I said, I think Holthus happens to be a great trainer, every year he develops something very nicely, and he doesnt get all bluebloods.
But you really can't blame a guy who spent a lotta dough on a horse for trying a change.
I think there is a perspective problem here, and allow me to point out that Holthus made the former owner a fortune and won a lotta races, but for the new guy, hes made 3 starts, and had one win, in the illustrious St Louis Derby.
What he did with the horse before Stonewall bought him really doesn't matter to them.
I think if he wins his last race, they never make the switch, never. But he lost with the rankness again, and if I had kicked up that kind of dough for a horse, I can see where I might be a tad upset when he blows a big purse by being rank again. Its not irrational to make a move they feel is in their best interests. And may I remind you of something else, everybody has made a lotta cash on this horse, except the current owner!!!! The former owner and his estate, the trainer, the jockey, the people who own the mare or the half siblings all made out great!!! But the guy who owns him now, well he aint doing so hot compared to them, that guys stuck a lotta cabbage. Lots easier to be loyal and all that when you aren't stuck your ass on an investment.

I can certainly understand that view, I guess personally I would have tried a jockey change.

I didn't mean to say that Pletcher hustled the horse or any horse but he is seemingly the only trainer in the business that gets horses like this handed to him on a silver platter. Henny Hughes was sold and as such was moved(though its hard to get teary-eyed for Biancone based upon the depth in his barn) from one mega trainer to another with a little sidetrip to dubai included. Stop defending Pletcher like your his lawyer for a minute ( no pun intended) to see that its discouraging from a standpoint from the other 99% of the business that doesn't have horses with him or sell them to him.
Do you really think that there aren't any other trainers that might have a shot with doing well with a horse such as this?
Pletcher/Dutrow have decreased the quality of racing in NY simply by dominating all the pertinent divisions to the extent where the majority of NY owners get NY breds and dont even try to compete. I dont blame the guy for taking the horse but you dont have to feel good about it.

Cannon Shell that was pretty stupid. I'm not trying to be Pletcher's lawyer, and I suggest you enroll in some reading comprehension classes so you can see my point.
Do I think its a "feel good" story? No, its most definitely not. Todd doesnt need another good horse, very true.
But all you bleeding hearts really miss the point. The guy who overpaid(seemingly, at least for now) is stuck his nuts on the deal. So he wanted to try and get out from under by switching to the leading trainer in America.
Is this really such a horrible thing?
How can you feel sorrier for a guy who made a pocketful of money on the horse(Holthus) then the guy whose out a brinks truck on him.
I don't see Pletcher as a factor in this story at all, and he certainly doesn't need to be defended here by me or anyone else.

Pletcher IS a factor in this story if for no other reason than the one Cannon Shell just pointed out....he simply controls too many horses in each condition ( along with Dutrow to a lesser extent ) in NY and thus makes it that much harder to fill the races. There is really no arguing this.

Now, NOBODY is blaming Todd, or saying it's his fault per se, but the situation is what it is, and it is not good for the game overall. No, this one situation, were it isolated would be about other things ( like loyalty ), but in the big picture this situation is a BIG problem...and it only seems to be getting worse.

That may not have been an option for the owners. Holthus could have refused to replace McKee.

No need to get so defensive. I understand your point and I understand that its a business, I understand that he made a lot of money with the horse, I understand that Pletcher is the leading trainer in the country.
The fact that the guy has bought questionable stallion prospect for way more than market value actually makes no difference. The whole point that I am trying to bring up is that when the same few barns get all the good babies and take the established stars too, it makes for an unhealthy sport.

Ok I understand that part, I really do. I'm not arguing it either.
But I really see this I guess from the owner's point of view. Everyone knew he overpaid for the horse back in the spring. I heard different numbers being thrown around and even if it was the lowest one I heard its still a disaster thus far.
The guys who pay the bills and support the game really don't need to be villified for trying to do something to recoup their investment.
Lets face it, we have a good trainer drought right now. I can't recall a time when so few guys have had so many good horses between them.
I don't know what the answer is. But its not really the concern of the owners, they have to go where they fell they have the best chance to recoup an investment.
It worked out rather nicely when the RHT people did it and went to Mandella. Hes standing for a fortune right now.

Ok Cannon Shell tell you what.
You meet me back here after he runs a few times for Todd and lets see if hes still rank.
People can make all the comments and innuendo they want about Todd having some secret edge, and moving up horses. But do you wanna make a little bet that the horse isn't rank next time?
Todd is a fine horseman(as are many other trainers, hes not the only one) and I think its a disgrace that the trainer/jockey combo couldnt get this horse to settle after having had all this time to try and correct it.
Its not just "some little thing", his rankness can be the difference between 1st place and 2nd or 3rd or off the board in a lotta future races. How much do you take before you make a move to try and find a guy who can get him to relax.
You're acting like this is a shock. hes had MONTHS to try and get him to settle, he can't do it. Time to find someone who can or might.
Ok, I'm a bad guy then, I agree with the owner 100% and would do the same thing.

Mandella is the kind of guy a lot of people like to root for. Not saying Todd isnt a great human being, he probably is. But hes kind of like the Yankees of horse racing. People just are plain tired of him. Mandella is kind of like the Cubs or Caridnals. Hard to have any ill feelings against.

What a great way to describe it and you are dead on.

I'll state a few obvious truths in this story.

1. Lawyer Ron was purchased for a seven figure sum.
2. The new owner has the right to do whatever he wishes with his horse.
3. Holthus has done nothing wrong.
4. Holthus has earned good money and likely a share in LR when he retires to stud.
5. Pletcher is guilty of nothing but hiring great assistants and running a tight ship.

I'm a little surprised he wasn't considered, maybe he was.
The Strub Series that kicks off with the Malibu would make a hell of a lot of sense to me. And Mandella is out there. Dutrow has done great work as well and would have made a fine choice. Nick Zito always does great work, he woulda been a great choice as well, especially to get him to rate with his crack exercise riders Carlos and Maxine Correa. A lotta guys mighta been considered. I realize what you are saying about Todd, I really do.
I know its very bad to have an imbalance, BELIEVE me it affects a lotta people in this game from the bottom to the top very badly. I'm not arguing that. Hes like Microsoft, the product is great, but competitors have no chance.

I not sure why you went off on a tangent but I don't particularly care if he's rank or not. I don't care about this horse and I dont care about the owner and I dont care about his stallion business. But I do care about horse racing, the sport and business. And that being so, I see many more problems being created by those that strictly see it as a "business". The concentration of power into single shedrows is a very troubling sign.

Agreed 5 times.

I agree with everything but 2. We don't know that there wasn't an agreement when they purchased the horse that they would retain Holthus as trainer throughout LR's career. If there was that agreement then they'd better have a pretty darn good reason for switching trainers.

What handicap horses has he turned into champions? I can only think of Left Bank. I think he follows Bluegrass Cat and Flower Alley to stud.

Cannon Shell, you and I have rarely if ever before disagreed, and we really don't disagree now. I agree with everything you said about concentration of power.
But I didn't go off on a "tangent". I believe that I am more in line with the real story here, a guy who isnt happy about his horses performance.
You don't think him still being rank matters? Come on cannon. he just blew the winners share of his last race for being rank, again. Please go back and watch the replay of the Super Derby ok Cannon? You will see what I am talking about. I don't think the move was "a move to Pletcher", it was a "move from Holthus". It may be semantics, ok, but do you see what I am saying about that part of the equation?

Lawyer Ron is a feelgood horse. Hes the kind of horse I root for (except when I have a nice win bet on Strong Contender). I hope he does well and theres little reason to think he wont. He ran very well in the Super Derby. For a while I didnt think SC was getting him.

Oh please, Left bank doesn't count? He was indeed a champion.
Heres a question for all of you, how many ACTIVE trainers in the USA have trained a handicap champion?

Mike,
You really are missing the point here. I don't care how much money Holthus got for anything related to the deal. I also could care less that they made a bad decision in overpaying for him (which I think at this point is premature at best on your part).

It is the manner in which it went down. If the Bloodhorse article is correct it was handled in a way that simply wasn't classy. You act like class should go out the window simply because of the money involved. It's sad that the opposite is true, the people with the least often act the best....I don't have any problem with the horse being transferred. But you can't tell me it was the right way to do it, because it wasn't.

I agree, but does it really matter if the boss takes you out to lunch and buys you a nice meal when he fires you or if he leaves a message on your phone?
The end result is the same. Its always lousy to be fired.

If you're a Holthus fan you resent him being taken from Bob. For others it a matter of Todd getting yet another made stakes winner. Having so many horses concentrated in one operation can be construed as negative. Todd already "owns" the older mare division on the east coast. The two G1 races for mares at SAR this summer saw a total of 10 horses go to post. Only ONE horse ran in both, though they were 5 weeks apart. Todd won both I think with horses that had been started with other trainers. He won 5 of the 6 2yo stakes at the Spa. Smaller outfits simply cannot compete so they ship to Delaware or jersey and get beat by his "B Team." It's frustrating.
When other trainers know that one guy has so many guns, they simply duck G1 races and ship out. That's why we can't get full fields in many NY G1's.

It sure as hell matters to me. 10 minutes to say goodbye to a horse that was one of the best you ever trained? Again, what goes around comes around. The most successful people treat the lowest person in the company with the same respect as the highest.

I would say first off, I don't feel like Holthus was "fired". For one, the new/current owners didn't "hire" him. The new owner simply moved his horse to another trainer. It happens all the time in this game.

I have had horses with a trainer moved them to another trainer and given other horses to the first trainer after that. So, I never fired the trainer I simply tried to see if they could improve with someone else. There was never hard feelings. Owners are allowed to have their horses trained by whomever they like.

If LR was mine and he continued to be rank in almost every race, I would have to question if he was getting the correct instruction.

There is no beef here. The owner is not required to give the trianer any warning at all. In fact, in some cases, it is almost preferable to do it with no notice. Some owners are paranoid about the attention their horses would recieve if they gave several days notice.

As far as I know.

It's funny that Lawyer Ron's ownership group can make a quick trainer switch decision like that, but Sackatoga still won't dump Tagg in a last-ditch attempt to get F.C. right.

I think getting rid of Holtus was a classless move, but I do agree that maybe the owners hated how they couldn't get Lawyer Ron to settle. I'm assuming that's the reason why this is happeneing.

But Sackatoga should do the same with Tagg. They've tried everything else, TRY THE TRAINER SWITCH!

It's a shame what's happened to the Hines family. If my father passed away and left everything to a lawyer then I would certainly be pissed off.

It doesn't shock me that the horse was moved to a different trainer because Holthus sticks with McKee through thick and thin and the new connections are obviously big timers and want the horse under a bigtime trainer.

I was hoping he would've been sent to Zito since his record with 3 year old or older males is much more illustrious than Pletcher. Todd seems to have tough luck with the boys.

pmayjr-

Why is it classless? If they went to guru and he said the moons alignment says go to Pletcher, would that matter? If they heard a voice from God, would that matter? If you have the cash and own the horses, you can manage them as flipantly as you desire. the trainer doesn't have to do business with you anymore if they don't like how you took the horses away. That is the trainer's right.

judging by what holthus said, there was no agreement. he said he actually expected to lose the horse when the deal was first made by stonewall.

you are absolutely right randy

Ridiculous statement, and false as well. Todds trained an older horse champ, Nick hasnt.

I'm sure Holthus is quite pleased with he money he made with the horse, and I would bet he doesnt get angry at all. Its standard for the trainer to receive a commission on a sale. Many cases its 5%. Trust me, if Holthus got taken care of on the sale, hes a very happy and prosperous guy.

He didn't leave everything to the lawyer. The lawyer is the executor of his estate. The executor is legally obligated to act in a fiscally responsible way on behalf of the heirs. IMO, selling LR for far more than his worth was a great act on behalf of the heirs. They got a buttload of money into the estate by selling at the maximum of his value.

Speightstown?

Pletcher is the best trainer in the business but he does have a flaw and that is his poor record with grade 1 caliber male route horses. Until he wins the Derby or BCC he's going to have an asterick by his name for greatest trainer.

Yes and he's acting like a real ******* by firing Mr. Hines' daughter and taking control of the family business in an estate battle that could take years to settle.