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geeker2 06-17-2010 08:34 AM
I blame GBBob and SCAV for that crap at Arlington :rolleyes:

CSC 06-17-2010 08:34 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Indian Charlie (Post 658817)
If Byk is sitting on the left of you, and Davidowitz on the right, who do you listen to?

If it were me in that situation, I'd tell Byk to stop banning PG1985 and I'd tell Davidowitz that he needs to lay off the Zenyatta Kool Aid.

I'd then stand up and yell out to Rupert that yeah, PE didn't ship, but she was facing much much much much better competition in her career, and there was no reason to ship out of the area.

Back in the day, I used to rip on East coast trainers that would refuse to ship
west, but not with Personal Ensign, as I felt she wasn't beating up on a bunch of cream puffs.

Zenyatta feeds on cream puffs.
After the info I got yesterday on the Arlington thread, I would be looking for Brian S Spencer, heck I may even buy him a beer.

Rupert Pupkin 06-17-2010 08:43 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by estreetposse (Post 658806)
Why would a trainer/owner want to run an eastern DIRT(the organic brown stuff) horse on tracks made out of rubber and a$$ lint? Zenyatta is great, in the BC she beat some 2nd string Euro turf horses and 1 or 2 actual DIRT(again, the organic brown stuff)horses. We all know what she has beaten in her other "glorified" allowance races so there is no need to try an argue that point anymore. There is no argument that she is not a very good horse with a decent career...but that is about all that it has been so far.
I wasn't talking about an east coast horse coing out west right now. I was talking about in past years when we used to have dirt.

ateamstupid 06-17-2010 08:55 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dunbar (Post 658821)
Personal Ensign wasn't, as far as I know, even considered for the BC Classic. (I certainly don't fault anyone for THAT decision--running against Alysheba would have been daunting, to say the least.) BUT, Zenyatta's camp has set the BC Classic as their year-end goal regardless of who else is heading there. Likewise, they announced the Apple Blossom date well ahead of time REGARDLESS of who else was going to show up there.

Despite that, there is all this relentless whining about the schedule her connections have chosen for her. She's already won Grade I's on both synthetic and dirt, and we somehow just get more whining. What a bunch of cup-half-empty nonsense!

We have a 6-year-old mare that in the hands of 95% of owner/trainer would have been retired (and stayed retired) after being the first mare to win the BC Classic. Instead of retirement, we have the unexpected pleasure of watching this excellent mare run another half dozen times, including two trips east. Despite all of this that we could and should be absolutely savoring, we get a surprising number of otherwise sane people who jump at any opportunity to nitpick Zenyatta's accomplishments.

--Dunbar
Right, we should all be falling all over ourselves thanking the Mosses for bringing her back to beat Taptam and St Trinians. The racing world would certainly collapse into dust were we not given that privilege.

It's nice that she's still running and her stretch runs are exciting in themselves, but I'm sorry, her campaign is boring and it doesn't nearly live up to the hyperbole we're smothered with by her connections and fans.

Rupert Pupkin 06-17-2010 08:57 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ateamstupid (Post 658805)
Oh stop it. That "Grade I" BS is a misleading argument and you know it. She's running in restricted races in her backyard against the same dreck over and over and people like you cry about us not being satisfied with that. She's so goddamn great, she should be able to ship more than twice a year, she should be able to face boys more than once a year. Hell, make her a quarter horse for a race or two, just do something different for once. She's accomplishing nothing but extending a meaningless winning streak and we'll never know how good she truly was because they refuse to break new ground with her.
The "Grade I" thing is not misleading. Sure there are times when a certain division is weaker than at other times. But grade I races are the best races that there are. Those are the most prestigious races. You could argue the division is weak this year, but what about last year? What about the year before that? She's won 17 races in a row over the past 3 years. Was the division weak every year?

If you own a filly or mare and they win a grade I, their value as a broodmare skyrockets. Grade I races are the races that everyone wants to win. Nobody is holding back. The best fillies and mares are going to show up in the grade I's. Zenyatta can't run against better horses unless she takes on the boys, which she will do again in the BC Classic later this year.

I can't imagine the way you would have blasted Personal Ensign back in the 1980s for running her final race in the BC Dsitaff instead of the Classic.

lemoncrush 06-17-2010 08:58 AM
Zenyatta is a sensational story, and a great mare. My only problem with her connections is that they continue to cater to the California circuit by running her in the same races every year. Bringing her back this year, should have meant new challenges, not just another reason to have "Zenyatta bobblehead day" at hollywood park.

However, it's not her fault that california has synthetic tracks. Nor is it her fault that John Sherrifs doesn't have an operation like Assumussen or Pletcher where he can just easily send her to 10 different tracks in the country where they have stalls and assistants ready to take care of her.

But even the most ardent Zenyatta supporters have to be tired of watching her in these restricted races in California where the competition (usually) is subpar.

Danzig 06-17-2010 09:04 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by johnny pinwheel (Post 658815)
you are right. what will they say if she(zenyatta) wins the classic again at churchill? not good enough......thats where those idiots ruined rachel they ran her against the boys over and over. zenyatta showed up ready to race in april...the other horse had to lower to garbage just to get a win and could not even think about racing zenyatta when she was supposed to for 5 million. so whose ducking who here? i 90 % think rachel won't be in the classic this year. as it is right now she has not a prayer of placing in it. she most likely would of lost at belmont saturday if she were entered in the ogden phipps. but , as usual, instead of reality you get the bone heads turning it into an argument about one or the other. they are both good horses, one continues to win and impress....the other has questions about soundness and fitness. who cares about horses in the past and comparing....can i bet crap like that in a race???....i doubt it. why even argue with these clowns. if you can't tell which horse was mismanaged for yourself than you are an idiot and probably lose all the time anyway. theres so many moron comments on here that i read them and gain betting confidence by doing so. waste your time and energy arguing about things that don't mean a thing. if people can't see which horse is better by now they are living in delusion land....let them bet and lose their money like they do most of the time. besides you are arguing over horses that go off 2-5 in every race anyway.

how ridiculous. the only time i think rachel was mishandled is when they tried to rush her back off the shelf to suit jess jacksons ego. you can't put up a horse for months, let them get fat and lazy, and then get them revved right up because there's 5 mil on the line.

i still don't understand why the need is there to knock her in an attempt to elevate zenyatta. it's absolutely ridiculous. and i find it funny that you bash others for wasting their time with the argument of who's better, and then you give your opinion of who is obviously better. you're engaging in the very thing you're criticizing others for doing!!

ateamstupid 06-17-2010 09:08 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rupert Pupkin (Post 658831)
The "Grade I" thing is not misleading. Sure there are times when a certain division is weaker than at other times. But grade I races are the best races that there are. Those are the most prestigious races. You could argue the division is weak this year, but what about last year? What about the year before that? She's won 17 races in a row over the past 3 years. Was the division weak every year?

If you own a filly or mare and they win a grade I, their value as a broodmare skyrockets. Grade I races are the races that everyone wants to win. Nobody is holding back. The best fillies and mares are going to show up in the grade I's. Zenyatta can't run against better horses unless she takes on the boys, which she will do again in the BC Classic later this year.

I can't imagine the way you would have blasted Personal Ensign back in the 1980s for running her final race in the BC Dsitaff instead of the Classic.
I know what a Grade I is, thanks. The Grade I's she's winning are mostly Grade I's in name only.

Enough with the Personal Ensign comparisons. For some reason, Zenyatta fans can never just keep it about Zenyatta. PE was practically beating a different species of filly than Zenyatta is, and you know it. Once again, apples and oranges.

Rupert Pupkin 06-17-2010 09:13 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ateamstupid (Post 658830)
Right, we should all be falling all over ourselves thanking the Mosses for bringing her back to beat Taptam and St Trinians. The racing world would certainly collapse into dust were we not given that privilege.

It's nice that she's still running and her stretch runs are exciting in themselves, but I'm sorry, her campaign is boring and it doesn't nearly live up to the hyperbole we're smothered with by her connections and fans.
No, we shouldn't be thanking them for bringing her back to face Taptam. We should be thanking them for bringing her back this year to take on Rachel (which they tried to do). And we should thank them for bringing her back this year to defend her title in the BC Classic.

Gaining Ground 06-17-2010 09:15 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rupert Pupkin (Post 658831)

I can't imagine the way you would have blasted Personal Ensign back in the 1980s for running her final race in the BC Dsitaff instead of the Classic.
didnt the phipps already have a pretty potent entry in that classic?

Coach Pants 06-17-2010 09:16 AM
So thank her for two races.

And you don't see anything wrong with that?

How about we just shut the sport down completely? It's obvious cowardice is rewarded and praised.

TouchOfGrey 06-17-2010 09:21 AM
Oh dear.

Of all the times for Steve to be off the satellite airwaves! Good for him for saying what many of us are thinking.

Rupert Pupkin 06-17-2010 09:25 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Coach Pants (Post 658842)
So thank her for two races.

And you don't see anything wrong with that?

How about we just shut the sport down completely? It's obvious cowardice is rewarded and praised.
So even though they wanted to take on Rachel, they are cowards? Even though they want to run against the best colts in the country, they are cowards? They are cowards if they don't try to choose a really tough race every time?

Is it like that in boxing to? Should a boxer try to look for the toughest fight he can find every time? If he doesn't, is he a coward? That is absurd and you know it. You point for a big fight or a big race, but you don't want to have really tough ones all the way there. You want some of the preps to be relatively easy. There is nothing wrong with that.

Coach Pants 06-17-2010 09:26 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by TouchOfGrey (Post 658845)
Oh dear.

Of all the times for Steve to be off the satellite airwaves! Good for him for saying what many of us are thinking.
You can tell a few of the dearly de-darted are still raging on the Paulick Report.

Rupert Pupkin 06-17-2010 09:31 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gaining Ground (Post 658841)
didnt the phipps already have a pretty potent entry in that classic?
It was so long ago I don't remember. Who did they have in there?

By the way, I wasn't really knocking them for not running in there. I was just trying to make a point that it's very rare even for the great fillies to run in the Classic. I don't know why there is this double-standard when it comes to Zenyatta.

Gaining Ground 06-17-2010 09:38 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rupert Pupkin (Post 658851)
It was so long ago I don't remember. Who did they have in there?

By the way, I wasn't really knocking them for not running in there. I was just trying to make a point that it's very rare even for the great fillies to run in the Classic. I don't know why there is this double-standard when it comes to Zenyatta.
seeking the gold and personal flag.

i dont think its a double standard. older males the last few years have been lacking in quality. we've seen time and time again that the fillies can compete and defeat the males. im sure if zenyatta resided in new york and was beating the same competition there would be an equal outcry.

i think it is actually a giant compliment to zenyatta that people want her to run against males.

Indian Charlie 06-17-2010 09:39 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rupert Pupkin (Post 658851)
It was so long ago I don't remember. Who did they have in there?

By the way, I wasn't really knocking them for not running in there. I was just trying to make a point that it's very rare even for the great fillies to run in the Classic. I don't know why there is this double-standard when it comes to Zenyatta.
They had a horse named Seeking the Gold back then.

He was a pretty good sort.

Danzig 06-17-2010 09:39 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dunbar (Post 658821)
Personal Ensign wasn't, as far as I know, even considered for the BC Classic. (I certainly don't fault anyone for THAT decision--running against Alysheba would have been daunting, to say the least.) BUT, Zenyatta's camp has set the BC Classic as their year-end goal regardless of who else is heading there. Likewise, they announced the Apple Blossom date well ahead of time REGARDLESS of who else was going to show up there.

Despite that, there is all this relentless whining about the schedule her connections have chosen for her. She's already won Grade I's on both synthetic and dirt, and we somehow just get more whining. What a bunch of cup-half-empty nonsense!

We have a 6-year-old mare that in the hands of 95% of owner/trainer would have been retired (and stayed retired) after being the first mare to win the BC Classic. Instead of retirement, we have the unexpected pleasure of watching this excellent mare run another half dozen times, including two trips east. Despite all of this that we could and should be absolutely savoring, we get a surprising number of otherwise sane people who jump at any opportunity to nitpick Zenyatta's accomplishments.

--Dunbar

i don't think too many are nitpicking...until someone says she's the best ever, or when someone says she should be/should have been horse of the year. that's the type of stuff that gets her accomplishments and schedule scrutinized, and deservedly so.

Indian Charlie 06-17-2010 09:40 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gaining Ground (Post 658853)

i think it is actually a giant compliment to zenyatta that people want her to run against males.
You would think that that would be obvious to all the Zenyattards who seem to think that we are all Z haters.

Until you pointed that obvious fact out though, it never even occurred to me that they didn't 'get' this.

Danzig 06-17-2010 09:41 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gaining Ground (Post 658853)
seeking the gold and personal flag.

i dont think its a double standard. older males the last few years have been lacking in quality. we've seen time and time again that the fillies can compete and defeat the males. im sure if zenyatta resided in new york and was beating the same competition there would be an equal outcry.

i think it is actually a giant compliment to zenyatta that people want her to run against males.

you're right, it is!

Rupert Pupkin 06-17-2010 09:41 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Danzig (Post 658810)
and it's interesting the comparison to personal ensign. she didn't get HOY either....


and i don't recall mr. phipps and shug bitching about it.


you want to be the best? beat the best. run a top campaign. don't stay in your backyard and say you're king of the hill. that's what is required to be an all-timer.
I don't think the Mosses or Shireffs ever claimed that Zenyatta was as good as Secretariat or anything like that. They know she's a mare and they treat her like a mare for the most part.

If they really thought she was as good as Secretariat, I'm sure they would be running her against the boys more often.

parsixfarms 06-17-2010 09:42 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ateamstupid (Post 658788)
It's also a problem with racing fans in general, the constant impulse to compare horses of the present to horses of the past, and it's usually unfair to the horse of the present. Instead of everyone appreciating Zenyatta for what she is, a very good mare with a beautiful and admirable will to win, rational racing fans are inundated with comparisons to Cigar and Citation and Personal Ensign and Secretariat and Picasso and Rembrandt. It's tiresome and unnecessary. Why is there such a rush to measure up the stars of today against the ghosts of the past while horses like Zenyatta are still writing their own stories?
You mean like the people last year (whether accurate or not is irrelevant if I understand your point) who were saying that Rachel was in the midst of the "greatest" campaign ever authored by a 3YO filly.

Smooth Operator 06-17-2010 09:46 AM
WOW … 10 of PE's 13 career races were at the same race track???

That's hilarious.


Gotta find out more about some of these 'monster' mares from the past (like WC) when I get a chance


By the way, you guys do realize that turf titans such as Funny Cide, Charismatic, and Mine That Bird have also won the KY Derby … right?

Arletta 06-17-2010 09:47 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Smooth Operator (Post 658863)
WOW … 10 of PE's 13 career races were at the same race track???

That's hilarious.


Gotta find out more about some of these 'monster' mares from the past (like WC) when I get a chance


By the way, you guys do realize that turf titans such as Funny Cide, Charismatic, and Mine That Bird have also won the KY Derby … right?
They won all over.. whats your point?

Danzig 06-17-2010 09:48 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rupert Pupkin (Post 658861)
I don't think the Mosses or Shireffs ever claimed that Zenyatta was as good as Secretariat or anything like that. They know she's a mare and they treat her like a mare for the most part.

If they really thought she was as good as Secretariat, I'm sure they would be running her against the boys more often.
not sure why you brought up secretariat, i didn't, and if they didn't, what's the connection? i only mentioned personal ensign...
however, i do know that they were angry and disappointed that she didn't get that eclipse, and know shirreffs commented on it recently. if they wanted that, they should have done more to get it...the horse could have done it, had they entered her where they needed to. they didn't, but wanted the reward anyway. i give them props for going to the bcc, i didn't expect it.

as for her being a mare and being treated like one, i'm not sure what that's supposed to mean....this sport, more than any, is where the girls can take on the boys, with success. i do not believe for a moment that taking on the opposite sex can be more of a detriment than staying with your own. zenyatta is a big girl, she can take care of herself. if they wish to play it safe, they can't expect to be treated as taking risks.

also, neither rachel or goldikova are secretariat reborn, and they take on males.

Danzig 06-17-2010 09:49 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by parsixfarms (Post 658862)
You mean like the people last year (whether accurate or not is irrelevant if I understand your point) who were saying that Rachel was in the midst of the "greatest" campaign ever authored by a 3YO filly.
in the context of the years since the last filly to win a preakness, and with the fact she became the first 3 yo filly to win a gr 1 unrestricted versus older males, it was one hell of a campaign....greatest ever-maybe not. but it was certainly a rare one, especially in this day and age.

Thunder Gulch 06-17-2010 09:50 AM
Zenyatta is a great horse. She is the best synthetic runner in the 5 year history of the synthetic track proliferation in the US. She proved that in the BC Classic by beating horses who largely specialized in dirt or turf. Where that SPECIALTY rates in the bigger picture is highly questionable. Until she beats a good field on dirt (Apple Blossom? Please), you can't start comparing her to the others who stand out in a 100+ year history of dirt racing. I still don't understand why people can't differentiate the two. How can you elevate synthetic superiority and not mention turf greats like Goldlikova or Ouija Board who went to battle with and defeat the best turf horses in the world multiple times?

Indian Charlie 06-17-2010 09:53 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Smooth Operator (Post 658863)
WOW … 10 of PE's 13 career races were at the same race track???

That's hilarious.


Gotta find out more about some of these 'monster' mares from the past (like WC) when I get a chance


By the way, you guys do realize that turf titans such as Funny Cide, Charismatic, and Mine That Bird have also won the KY Derby … right?
Man, just stop. If you are comparing Winning Colors to Charismatic and Mine That Bird to justify your ridiculous position, you are even more moronic than anyone here could possibly have imagined.

I assure you, any number of the colts that WC beat in her Derby, horses like Risen Star and Forty Niner, would have handled Zenyatta.

Your stupidity just is mind boggling.

Dunbar 06-17-2010 09:59 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ateamstupid (Post 658830)
Right, we should all be falling all over ourselves thanking the Mosses for bringing her back to beat Taptam and St Trinians. The racing world would certainly collapse into dust were we not given that privilege.

It's nice that she's still running and her stretch runs are exciting in themselves, but I'm sorry, her campaign is boring and it doesn't nearly live up to the hyperbole we're smothered with by her connections and fans.
No, no, you are the correct one, Ateam. We should all continue to rant on about the cowardice of the Mosses when any typical owners would have just retired their Breeders Cup Classic champ. What in the world are the Mosses thinking? Bringing back a champ as a 6-yr-old and running her just twice in the East. Pointing their mare to the Breeder's Cup Classic, as if that's a tough race or anything! It's ridiculous, you're right. We should all be getting excited about next year's Kentucky Derby, or something, instead.

Look, would I rather see her facing males before the BC Classic? Sure. But in an age when pretty much every Grade I winner is a candidate for "He/She's done enough" and whisked off to the breeding shed, I'm EXTREMELY glad that they brought Zenyatta back to race again.

--Dunbar

Indian Charlie 06-17-2010 10:01 AM
Just listening now.

He ranked Azeri, prior to Zenyatta anyways, as the 2nd best mare he's ever seen.

Nuff said.

He's clueless.

And if Zenyatta is the best mare he's ever seen, shouldn't she be able to beat Quality Road?

slotdirt 06-17-2010 10:03 AM
I say, once again, that you guys are absolutely insane if you think Zenyatta is crossing the Mississippi again this year. Insane.

Coach Pants 06-17-2010 10:05 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dunbar (Post 658869)
No, no, you are the correct one, Ateam. We should all continue to rant on about the cowardice of the Mosses when any typical owners would have just retired their Breeders Cup Classic champ. What in the world are the Mosses thinking? Bringing back a champ as a 6-yr-old and running her just twice in the East. Pointing their mare to the Breeder's Cup Classic, as if that's a tough race or anything! It's ridiculous, you're right. We should all be getting excited about next year's Kentucky Derby, or something, instead.



--Dunbar
They brought her back for selfish reasons, not for the fans. If they actually cared about the sport then they would run her against the best older males in the East on dirt. They don't want that.

They want Best in Show awards. If all they care about is awards then Moss should leave the game and invest in Broadway plays. Lord knows he would fit right in with those sissies.

We'll see if they cross the Rockies for the BC

Coach Pants 06-17-2010 10:07 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Indian Charlie (Post 658870)
Just listening now.

He ranked Azeri, prior to Zenyatta anyways, as the 2nd best mare he's ever seen.

Nuff said.

He's clueless.

And if Zenyatta is the best mare he's ever seen, shouldn't she be able to beat Quality Road?
Maybe he didn't wear glasses from 1970-1995

Indian Charlie 06-17-2010 10:07 AM
Best Pal would have beaten Zenyatta as well.

Steve Zenyattawitz is hopeless!

NTamm1215 06-17-2010 10:09 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dunbar (Post 658869)
Look, would I rather see her facing males before the BC Classic? Sure. But in an age when pretty much every Grade I winner is a candidate for "He/She's done enough" and whisked off to the breeding shed, I'm EXTREMELY glad that they brought Zenyatta back to race again.

--Dunbar
You can't compare bringing back a mare to race to a colt being sent to the shed, it's just not realistic whatsoever. Was it good for the game for them to bring her back? Of course, but can't we get her to try at least an interesting race here and there prior to the BC? Hol Gold Cup? Pacific Classic? For God sake, maybe even the Goodwood?

NT

slotdirt 06-17-2010 10:10 AM
Folks who think she was unretired for anything other than a 2010 victory parade and some sort of potential lifetime achievement Eclipse award are delusional.

NTamm1215 06-17-2010 10:10 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Indian Charlie (Post 658870)
And if Zenyatta is the best mare he's ever seen, shouldn't she be able to beat Quality Road?
This absolutely cracked me up. She's the best mare of his lifetime because of what he's seen, she could compete with the best males of the last 25 years but he wouldn't bet her to beat Quality Road? That was where he completely lost all credibility to me. He got close after comparing the 1988 BC Distaff to the 2010 Vanity.

NT

slotdirt 06-17-2010 10:12 AM
Would anybody rank Quality Road in the top 50 handicap horses of the last 25 years?

Dunbar 06-17-2010 10:20 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Coach Pants (Post 658842)
So thank her for two races.

And you don't see anything wrong with that?

How about we just shut the sport down completely? It's obvious cowardice is rewarded and praised.

I agree that cowardice is rewarded and praised. But what's even more rewarded and praised is retiring good horses and taking them out of the game. "It's just good business". "We want to do the best for the horse". Clap clap clap.

Shame on the Mosses for bringing Zenyatta back and only racing twice in the East. And the nerve they have of announcing her schedule far enough in advance that any filly/mare in the country could meet her if desired by the connections.

Shame, too, on Zenyatta for excelling on two surfaces, while "really" good horses can apparently only excel on one, dirt.

Shame on the Mosses for aiming so low as to win a 2nd BC Classic.

--Dunbar

slotdirt 06-17-2010 10:23 AM
Dunbar, I will bet you that Zenyatta will not race again this year outside of the Pacific time zone. Name your price. Breeders Cup Classic on dirt? I laughed.


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