The bolded isnt necessarily true.

Why would you feel the need to sign Park and Durbin? They are easily replacable.

Polanco is a gold glover who is a better offensive player than feliz.

Halladay is Halladay, though Lee is great too.

Park and Durbin were our two best bullpen guys last year IMO.. especially Park. If we replace them with guys just as good that is okay, though I really want them both signed.

Polonco was a gold glove 2nd baseman. And honestly a gold glove is hardly an accurate measure of a players defensive worth versus others at his position. Polanco also is a singles hitter with no power at a power position. Feliz is far from Arod but his defense at third was as good as anyone in the NL and he did have some power. It not only is a lateral move but Polanco is going to be 34, he isnt getting better.

Park and Durbin are barely replacement level guys. They were the 11th and 15th best pitchers on the staff last year using VORP as a measure. They could get younger, cheaper guys to do just as well as those 2.

I Don't get it. If they had paid Lee the 9 mil, then they had Hamels, Lee, and Halliday possible for the World Series. They were competitive for it all in 2009 with just Lee pitching well. Chances are 2 out of those 3 above starters would be pitching well in the 2010 World Series. That's all they needed. All I can think of is they were concerned about the chemistry going bad (too much expected from them etc.)

The only logical explanation seems to be they are just cheap

seattle got lee ?

they might be tough next year?

In the end, they gave up a ton of prospects to get Lee and a ton of prospects to get Halladay. As an Indian fan, I think they gave up very minimal amounts to get Lee, but what do I know. I think it's still simply a case of trying to get some of those prospects back. That's it. Cheapness is certainly also involved, they're simply gambling Halladay is enough this year to get them back to the World Series. The postseason is a crap shoot anyway. They had zero chance to sign Lee. Evidently Lee wants Sabathia money. I'm not sure who will give him that. Lee was the big winner. He has a much better chance to put up good numbers with Seattle as his home park rather than Philly despite the presence of a DH. I can honestly see both sides to should the Phillies have traded Lee argument. Sometimes being cheap can work.

Dont believe that crap that they are feeding everyone about those propects. There is no valid theory that I know of that says Lee being traded helps them win the WS this year. If they got back a blue chip guy and Amaro said I couldnt pass on him, I could see it. But they got 3 question marks.

Did I hear correctly? Lee said the Phils told him to not believe the rumors. Then, 24 hours later, Reuben called him, and told him he was traded?

As mentioned, the Polanco for Feliz swap at third is an offensively upgrade only. Feliz was a friggn wall at the hot corner last year, I can't imagine Placido making those plays at the same %...What it does do though, is it puts a runner on base more often which generates even more runs, sometimes disguising the hole(s) at the back end of the rotation.


As for the Halladay/Lee move, it was a matter of timing. Personally, I think Amaro jumped the gun a bit here. I would've waited, chanced it and let Lee increase/decrease his value during this upcoming year. Amaro tried to sweep it all under the rug in one big fell swoop. There's no way they could spin it to the fans if they were leading the division mid-season and traded Lee for minor league prospects, only to get beat in the postseason by a team that shells the roto. The brass pulled the Lee trade out at the only time that it could be semi-justified, the day they land a top 2 arm in the league like Halladay. It would be tough for them to showcase a lineup of Halladay, Lee, Hamels, Happ, Hole, only to dismantle it around the deadline. They didnt want us fans to think that it was possible to have such a potent team.

Whether it was cheap, or to 'restock the farm', I'm not a huge advocate of the deal. Not at this present moment. It was a slight move upwards, but the hole at the end remains. I wouldn't count on the bullpen too much next year. I guess they are attempting to generate more runs to dim the glare-ski.

Well, evidently that is the market value for Lee. The Indians got crap for him, and the Mariners didn't give away any top ones either to get him. For as good as he's pitched the last two years, he's not fetching much in the way of prospects. They got 3 question marks back for the 4 they gave up to get him. I don't know how organizations operate with regards to their minor league systems.

There is no valid theory on that trading Lee would help them win the World Series. However, baseball is strange. By what theory, after 2008 could you have said Hamels would have a sub par year and Lidge would absolutely stink in 2009 and the Phillies would still make it back to the World Series?? I simply look at my Cleveland Indians. All the good years Lee had with them, they never made the playoffs in any of them. The year Lee stunk to high heaven and couldn't even make the post season roster, they had a 3-1 lead in the ALCS

Some excellent points, Cannon



They could've come up with a way to keep this guy (Lee) and had a dream rotation going into the season, but they cheaped out … which is why they'll probably never beat NY or Boston in the Series…

I'm gonna give the benefit of the doubt to the team who's last 3 years are: 2007, division champion...2008 World Series Champion...2009 National League Champion.

Their resume the last 3 years exceeds both Boston and the Yankees. They've each won one, and the Phillies are the only of the 3 to have been to 2.

They all even. No one cares or remembers who went to the World Series and lost.

That's simply not true. Are you seriously telling me any general baseball fan has no clue or inkling who lost the 1975 World Series?? Really?? Or who lost the 1986 World Series?? Really?? The losers of those Series' are as much of baseball lore as the winners. You need to go watch James Earl Jones' speech in Field of Dreams again. (without a loser, noone wins.)

How bout the last 50 or 60 years, horseofcourse?

How does the Phils record match up with NY over that time period?



ROOKIE call by Amaro


NY would've found a way...

How does ANY team match up with NY in the past 50 or 60 years you fucl<ing douchebag.

Good job by NY to get the best pitcher in baseball signed for under market value for the next four years huh booth?

You are a fucl<ing moron.

Have fun comparing the Phils to the most successful organization in sports (gosh it hurt writing that). No **** NY would have found a way. Their ownership has no concept of a budget.

I as much as anyone wish we still had Lee. I am very thrilled with Halladay. You are just a dumbass Booth. How the fucl< did you latch on to Philly and USC?

LMAO


Nothing better than getting under your skin and watching you go off, Antichrist32 :D :cool:

The theory that pitchers are fragile and you can never have too many of them

It pains me to agree with a USC sicko but you very well may be right.

i just dont understand how you can be a fan of this team, who has done more for us in the past two years than any two years, and be so freaking cynicle or however that is spelled.

You should be overjoyed we have Halladay for the next 4 years.

I am with you on the Phils being cheap about Lee but damn, things are still looking excellent for us this year.

Be satisfied.

And can you believe McRib is actually playing okay? I think he's played his best football of his career the past 4 games. Two different 4th quarter comebacks is unheard of for him.. and it all has to do with McReid actually running the ball now. Just think, maybe if we'd taken some pressure off McRib the past 10 years by using our damn running game maybe we would have won a superbowl!

A guy that went 2-0 in the WS and 4-0 overall in the playoffs deserved better than to be treated like some second-rate set-up guy a few weeks later, Antitrust32.



Yo Cannon … ya like the new avy?

last 60 years?? no team matches the Yankees or is remotely close to their ballpark. It's simply a ploy by Amaro. I think he thinks they would have been overconfident ala the Mets if they had both Lee and Halladay so he ditched one of them to keep the team grounded. How's that! fine...I'll succomb to you, Cannon and the rest....

:$: :$: :$: :$: ....there. My argument is like trying to argue snow isn't white for the most part. I try!

Yeah it's easy bringing up maybe 2 out of the top 3 World Series ever. Bottom line is, nobody cares who comes in second.

Well, I'm pretty much a loser...so it matters to me!! I don't need internet help...
2008 Rays
2007 Rockies
2006 Tigers
2005 Astros
2004 Cardinals
2003 Yankees
2002 Giants
2001 Yankees
2000 Mets
1999 Braves
1998 Padres
1997 Indians
1996 Braves
1995 Indians
1994 no one
1993 Phillies
1992 Braves
1991 Braves
1990 A's

am I close???

Don't know, Don't care.

Well, you're obviously a winner. Some people actually have the ability to remember who the winner beats in a big game. Sorry, but it's true.

She's a feisty dyke. She could have a hidden testicle.

Update on the Cliff lee giveaway...


THE BIG NAMES: The Blue Jays send RHP Roy Halladay to the Phillies, who send LHP Cliff Lee to the Mariners in a separate but congruent trade.

THE PROSPECTS: The Phillies send RHP Kyle Drabek, C Travis D’Arnaud, and OF Michael Taylor to Toronto and receive RHP Phillippe Aumont, OF Tyson Gillies, and RHP J.C. Ramirez from Seattle.

This was the big one.

The Blue Jays cashed in their ace for a potential top-of-the-rotation starter in Drabek, who has repaid their faith with a quality start to his 2010 season in Double-A, where he spent part of 2009 as well. The 22 year-old could easily be in Triple-A by mid-season and in Toronto by next year.

D’Arnaud has shown off more power as a Blue Jay (.851 OPS in 29 games) than he did as a Phillie. Should that trend continue, it would elevate him from a potential regular to a potential all-star catcher. He’s still far away (only in High-A ball this season), but he’s in his second full-season of minor league ball and is closing in on 1000 professional at-bats already despite still being only 21-years-old. D’Arnaud will need to work on his plate discipline ( his 2.01 K/BB ratio is too high), especially if this season’s power display is a fluke, but he should still develop into a player who can contribute for the Jays.

Taylor was flipped to the A’s immediately, and we’ll discuss him below.

To make up for the players they gave up to get Halladay, the Phillies sent incumbent ace Cliff Lee to Seattle for prospects to replenish their farm system. The only problem (besides the obvious lack of killer instinct) is that the trio they got in return isn’t nearly as good as the trio they sent away.

Aumont has all the raw ability he had when he was drafted in the first round by Seattle in 2007 but clearly no clue how to use it. He has run into the standard mechanical issues that most pitchers his size (6’7”) have when they try to repeat their delivery, but those are multiplied by two other factors – (1) Aumont is from Canada, meaning that he did not get to play nearly as many games as an amateur as prep players in warmer climates, and (2) between two organizations, Aumont has been jerked in and out of the rotation without ever having a chance to acclimate himself to one style of pitching.

Back in the starting rotation in Double-A this year, the results have not been good. The Phillies have tried to refine his mechanics to make him more consistent but all it’s done is vary his velocity from one start to the next. His mid-90’s fastball sometimes shows up in the high-80’s instead and the 21 year-old has walked as many batters as he has struck out. The book is far from closed on Aumont but he’ll need to get the mechanics under control and hope that the Phillies find a home for him and keep him there.

Gillies has been equally as disappointing since becoming a Phillie. While expectations were to be tempered considering he was coming off a career season in an extreme hitters league, certainly more than a .237/.282/.340 performance was expected. Gillies’ BABIP is down almost .100 points from last season, where it was not unsustainably high, so some bad luck can be attributed to his struggles. However, the low BABIP has mostly been caused by a low line drive rate, which signals that Gillies just isn’t squaring up Double-A pitching. The 21 year-old has also battled some injuries this season so there’s no reason to think Gillies can’t turn his 2010 campaign around, but so far the Phillies can’t like what they’ve seen.

Ramirez is the only Phillies acquisition that has performed to his career levels, and his 4.10 ERA and 8 K/9 are right in line with what he has done in the past. Unfortunately for the Phillies, Ramirez necessarily project as a future starter and may find his home in the bullpen.

Yeah, why doesn't it surprise me that these "prospects" they got for Lee aren't panning out.

Still can't believe this guy (Amaro) let him go.

I know the guy has made some good moves with the club ... but he had a chance to have two bona-fide killers at the top of the rotation while going for a second world championship in three seasons ... and the genius let Lee go for those great prospects.



AMEN

I am inclined to agree with SO.
While I understand trading a chip (especially one who is going to command a ton of money in the off season) for prospects and your teams future.
But why worry about the future, when you have a team that could win right now? Having both Halladay and Lee for the playoffs could have had serious implications for the Phills winning their 2nd tittle in 3 years.

Yeah especially if Lee gets traded to a team that winds up playing against Philly