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i was asking that in regards to year end voting, and jerry browns take on what occurred, not what anyone wished had occurred. they didn't face each other. imaginative scenarios of who would do what to whom had they meant should have no place in the discussion. based on the years' racing, rachel accomplished more than zenyatta. |
I am sure its been mentioned or asked in the first three pages, but we all know that Brown advises people on horses sales, does he have a stake in this outcome?
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RA has to do alot in the future to erase what Zenyatta did in her broad picture of races. Zenyatta is a closer that managed to retire undefeated and overcome all pace conditions that were thrown at her and finished by beating the males in the Breeders Cup Classic at 1 1/4 miles which at this point RA is suspect without getting weight. Yes she has alot to overcome in her 4 year old campain. Lets revisit it this time next year after RA has picked her spots and the BC is on dirt. Will she still be the same world beater that alot of people think she is, or will she be the great 3 yo Filly she was. |
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i don't think so. i find it amazing that much of the arguments for the one could be made for the other. but those squarely in one camp or the other don't see that. watch: zenyatta gets HOY and history remembers undefeated 3 yo rachel as the fans race horse. zenyatta has to do a lot in the future to erase what rachel did in her broad picture of races. rachel is a tactical horse that managed to go undefeated this year and overcome all pace conditions that were thrown at her and finished by beating the males in the woodward, first ever for a filly. |
ok how many of r.a s races would zen have won..1 maybee 2
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Seriously? Joe Drape's NY Times Counterpoint about HOY lists her floppy eared love of running as one of two things to think about when considering the big beautiful Zenyatta. I can give several things in Rachel's favor before I get to the 'she's so pretty' argument. Not that it doesn't enrapture me to behold Zenyatta, but c'mon. When is that a qualification for HOY? This is not Westminster Best in Show judging. Who wants it more and struts the best is not what HOY is about.
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Didn't Zenyatta get weight in the BC Classic? |
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She is 1250lbs how much more can a horse weigh?lol |
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I was like "remember how I explained how one camp wants to talk about races and stats, and the other wants to talk about crying and feeling good inside, yea....'and she just has genuine star power,' is one of the things allegedly in her corner for HOY." It's like the further we get into the "debate," the more crazy the diversions become. In a couple weeks, having exhausted anything bordering on a reasonable analysis, people will be talking about how Rachel's unwillingness to dance before the race to entertain the fans is a serious concern when thinking about HOY voting. |
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z8kRDFNFIl8 |
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Here are the grade 1/2 races that the horses Zenyatta has beaten won this year since JB says Zenyatta beat up on Anashits creation, the favorite argument to why Zenyatta just is a notch below
Breeders Cup Distaff Kentucky Derby Travers Santa Anita Derby Sham Stakes Jockey Club Gold Cup Irish Champion Stakes Pacific Classic Arlignton Million Man O War Manhatten Kilroe Santa Anita Handicap Clark Queen Elizibeth Sussex Stakes Super Derby Amersterdam Fountain of Youth Florida Derby Hawthorne Gold Cup El Encino La Canada Santa Margarita |
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Interesting that you include stakes that Quality Road won, Sea the Stars won, that horses won in years past while claiming that it was this year, a Grade III already disqualified by the previous problem, and a race that hasn't even been run yet in 2009. |
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NT |
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for starters, exactly when did zenyatta face pioneerof the nile, or the pamplemousse? and i guess it's the clark brian was asking about, since there is no '09 winner as yet. |
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not sure what jerry brown has to do with your post about winners this year that zenyatta faced in the classic. or what the winner of the irish championship has to do with it either, since sea the stars didn't come to the bc this year. |
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But she still got that dirty head past Anabaa's Creation. And that counts for something as the winner of.....a second-level allowance. |
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yeah, that's why i said for starters...i knew there were more than the ones i mentioned. |
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And the hilarious thing is that I don't even dislike Zenyatta. I think she's awesome. I think Rachel earned this fair and square and accomplished significantly more -- and it's telling that those arguing in favor of that use history, races, performances, and analysis to make their case while those arguing against it are just trying to find something, ANYTHING that comes close to working...and that's either emotion (which should have nothing to do with it) or half-truths, or in the case of that clusterf*ck of a post above about the GI/GII winners above, a 70% truth, if rounding up. |
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yeah, me too. |
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lol! I guess nobody watched the Preakness? haha. what an argument! |
Read this Brown piece again … and it still makes no sense.
Face it, Jerry … the 3-year-old colts were mediocre, at best, this year … and the sad fact is … some of them are probably better than the older mules she (barely) hung on to beat in the Woodward. Wasn't exactly like she was getting the best of a Bernardini … or a Mineshaft … out there. The REAL challenge for the filly was coming out to the coast and taking on the undefeated, Eclipse-award-winning Breeders' Cup champion mare … and she was a NO SHOW. No one in their right mind could vote for her over Z, in my opinion … but that's the problem … too many of these voters are out of their minds. Take 2004, for instance … a significant number of them actually cast their ballots for SJ as HotY. This was pure insanity when you had a brilliant older horse which not only proved that he was the fastest sprinter in the country … but the fastest router, as well. |
Even though it cant happen, but i feel Gio Ponti is as good as these two. He is a champ on the Turf and tried to be on the dirt, not his surface. Could there be another horse that we are overlooking or is it a slam dunk between these two. Has either one of these fillies ran on the Turf? Just a thought.
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How are you certain that the weight played an issue in either race? Maybe I'm missing the significance of weight. Are they like the Lifelines used on "Who Wants To Be A Millionaire"? Was Calvin Borel allowed to pull out 8 1lb pieces of lead from his saddle and chuck them at Macho Again as he closed the gap? I better check the replay. |
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I'm impatient. Anyone who doesn't think Zenyatta deserves Horse of the Year is an ignorant slut. |
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Some clarity on Weight for Age: Weight for Age (WFA) is a term in Thoroughbred horse racing which is one of the conditions for a race. It means that a horse will carry a set weight in accordance with the Weight for Age Scale. This weight varies depending on the horse’s age, its sex, the race distance and the month of the year. Weight for age races are usually Group 1 races, races of the highest quality. WFA is a method of trying to equal out the physical progress which the average thoroughbred racehorse makes as it matures. The thoroughbred matures extremely quickly compared to the human being. By the age of two the horse has achieved 95% of its mature height and weight, and by the end of its third year it will be fully mature. To allow for this variation in maturity in the context of racing, it is necessary to express it as a function of the weight a horse will carry in a race. It is also necessary to take into account the race distance because stamina comes with maturity, and younger horses are at a greater disadvantage the further they have to run. If no allowance was made, a mature older horse would always beat a younger one. |
Good read in the Bloodhorse on the subject by Steve Haskins. Interesting in that the bloodhorse poll is running almost exactly opposite the NY Times poll with about 60% Zenyatta
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