First, I do not dislike you at all.

Second, I think that you are correct that this attribute is a big part of what makes some players good and some great, what makes some great and some hall of famers. I think James has it. I don't think he has it to the same extent as a Kobe Bryant or a Michael Jordan or Larry Bird or Magic Johnson though. He may not even have it to the extent of a lot of lesser players, Tony Allen or Maurice Williams, for example. But I don't think any of those players, or any player in the history of the league has the physical talents that he has. So it's a combination. Bird and Magic may have had ice water in the veins but they were limited in the things they could even attempt to do because of physical limitations whereas James may be scared but he's got so much ability that he's able to get things done. At the free-throw line though, none of the physical abilities or lack thereof matter. Maybe a difference between him and MJ is that MJ said to himself "I want the ball and I'm GOING to get it done" while LeBron says "I want the ball and I'm going to try and get it done."

Oh ...more goods stuff. Well said.




I'm glad you don't dislike me. I thought you did.

I have to run, but would like -really-to know what you think of David Lighty.

I played BBall for a long time... and realize that foul shots are a mental game also.

I just still cant handle Pro's missing them left and right... its not good.

But I guess that is why mental toughness makes great players legandary, and also makes great players who dont have the mental toughness... well just another one to have played the game.

A few examples of the mentally tough:

Tiger (obviously)
Jack (obviously)
Jordan (obviously)
Shane Victorino (thats for you Scuds)

I don't watch the Cavs every night like Morty does, so I can only speak as someone whose team has played LeBron 12 times in the last year. He's possibly the scariest physical specimen to ever step on the court. He doesn't scare me all that much as a player though, and that should be pretty alarming, since Kobe and Chris Paul and even guys like Chauncey Billups always make me nervous.

Not only does Brick James suck from the FT line, he still has yet to develop a consistent jumper, which is absolutely necessary for a wing of course. How can he be the best player in the league (as many claim) when I shout at the TV "give him space, make him shoot it!" every time he's on the perimeter in a clutch situation? I'm pretty sure I'm not the only one saying that..

Honestly, he's as strong as an ox, so part of me thinks he would actually be better playing mainly in the post, but that's beside the point.

I also think that if there were no foul limit, he'd be more effective, as he could drive to the basket more often, where he's unstoppable once he gets some steam.

Maybe I'm influenced by how inept he was in the EC Semis, but I agree with Mort here.

!!!!!!!OOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!

Of course you would think the best way to play him is to give him space. That's no different than Kobe Bryant or Michael Jordan. I'm not saying he's as good a shooter as those two but you've got to try to take something away and that's got to be his driving. Why on earth would anyone want to play up on him and take away the jumper and allow him the driving lanes?

I'm actually surprised by the amount of criticism he gets. He easily scores 30 a night and if he wasn't so unselfish, could probably be up around 35-40. He single-handedly beat Detroit in the East Finals a couple of years ago and led his team to the championship series. Of all the teams to face the Celtics in the playoffs last year, his team played them the tightest and anyone that disagrees that that happened because of LeBron just doesn't know basketball. He's the reason guys like Gibson and Sczerbiak get the open shots they do. When he's going to the basket, he's getting the attention of every single defender. That's what enables their big guys to get offensive rebounds. I remember the same thing used to be true of Dominique Wilkins. His coaches would say that sometimes, a bad shot by Dominique was a good shot for the team because it led to offensive rebounds and easier shots. When guys are open, he finds them. He's the best passer in the league, including point guards. No doubt that he has weaknesses in his game. His defense could use some work. His jumper could use some work. He needs to shoot better from the line. But the Cavs would probably not finish in the upper half of the ACC without him.

Oh my God.




And you were doing so well.

Are we going to resume our nightly battles Kg? Looks like you are re-energized.

These guys have actually made me have to defend Lebron. If they only knew.

OK..now I'm upset.

I admit I am sure I don't know nearly as much as you...but some things are self evident.


Over time I have admitted that James is clearly far and way the best on the team. He's the best at driving the lane in the league and agree the best passer. Other things you mentioned go hand in hand with all that.


He's a bad 3 point shooter and takes far too many 3's. He's not good at the line...which diminishes he's driving ability. He's no special player on defense.He has more holes than I believe you may want to admit...he's also selfish most of the time. No guy who falls well below the league average in 3's should be taking so many 3's...for one thing.


Then about the Cavs without him. Of course they're not good....you can say that about a lot teams if all of a sudden their best player went poof! It's just a poor and unfair characterization. That said..the main reason the Cavs played Boston so well was team defense.....no way it was all James. There are some good players on that team. I didn't say all stars ,but people like to bash them as if they wouldn't even play 10 minutes for any other team.

James is what he is;a great athlete with a little more to go before he becomes a great player.He had one big game against Boston..the rest were not sa hot to horrible.

Best athlete in the NBA... possibly ever.

Needs a consistent jump shot and foul shot.
His instincts have improved.

He will be the best.
Even though he is nowhere near the basketball player
Kobe, Duncan, Michael, or Bird, are/were.

Agree with Mortunses on the 3's. But all he needs is a decent
jumper and the hole will be wide open.

Nowhere near? What do you base that opinion on? Certainly not stats.

Ability to see the floor.
Hands, leadership, feeling the pace of the game
and adjusting accordingly.
Anticipation on defense and positioning.

no not stats. Worthless pile o crap in many cases.
in baskeball one plays with other people.

:rolleyes: I have never wanted Kobe or Jordan to take an open shot.

I WANT my team to give LeBron an open jumper. Anyone who watches basketball knows that there are certain guys you dare to shoot. LeBron is one of those guys, and is by far the best player to be one of those guys, IMO. Kobe and Jordan were/are definitely not those guys.

Simply put, if he could shoot jumpers and free throws, he'd be one of, if not the best in history. He still can't do either. I frankly don't think he cares enough to work to be great in those areas.

I get it. "intangibles". Thats like arguing about God.

Are you going to tell me that Larry Bird was a better defender than Lebron at any stage of his entire life? Or even close?

Intangibles my ass.
You tell me who has better hands at Center/PowerForward than Tim Duncan.
You tell me who sees the floor better than Steve Nash...

Intangibles...
get a clue and watch some games.

Birds hands made him a much better defender
than anyone with his lack of footspeed could ever have had.
Birds ability to snag bad passes and still get off perfectly
fluid shots was amazing.

WTF is an intangible?
He plays well on a Parkay floor?
You attempt to mimmick silly sport caster that have no idea how to watch a game.

I am glad we are disrobing His Highness.



That's possibly James' biggest drawback.....it affects a lot of things for him. That's what I think anyhoo.

Remember, you started this.:)

I happen to adore basketball.
My bad for being too passionate.

The day I see Lebron James block out
Big Ig's man by getting his butt into the legs
I will chant a basketball mantra.

You have to know what others on your team can
an cannot do. When I see Lebron sprinting down the
floor while slow as dried mud Ig is battling a guy Lebron
was right next to for a rebound... Its sickening sometimes.

And I did not start anything.
Look back and see who responded to my player thread.

Why so angry?

LOL.

Larry Bird was a defensive liability and anyone from his era would say the same thing. Yeah, hands made him a good defender. LOL

Fair enough...i get passionate myself sometime.

You are characterizing Lebron as some sort of pretty boy when i dont think that is the case. Remember, he isnt a big. He is a smalll forward. The reason bird was underneath the basket so much is because he was too slow to guard the other team's three so most of the time he would draw the 4.

But im sure you knew that.

His hands made a better defender than anyone with his lack of speed could possibly have. Remember the people he played with were superior defenders. Hard to look great defending on a team that contained Dennis Johnson, Robert Parrish, Kevin McHale... those were all very good defenders.

And I am from his era. I watched all Birds college games when they finally started televising him (Indiana St. was not a big draw). And I hated his guts because of his mouth.

Partially correct imo.
But Bird was an exceptional rebounder with no hops
because his technique was exquisite. He blocked out
at very good angles, used his strength when necessary,
and played dirty. And balls did not go bouncing off his hands.
If a quick rebound came down because of bairly glancing the
rim, Bird snagged it. His reaction time was... bizarre it was so good.

I watched Bird plenty of times. That whole "hands" thing was created by the Boston media because Bird was the great white hope and there couldnt be any flaws in this basketball genius.

Bird was a great player, one of the all time greats for sure and no one would argue that. But defensively?

He was a liability. Anyone knows that "hands" can't make you a good defender. You dont defend with your hands, you defend with your feet. He was too slow to guard the other team's 3 and they put cornbread and then later 7 foot kevin mchale on the other team's small forward because Bird would get lit up every time he was on the perimeter.

With the Three point line moved in and the game being much faster today, Bird would be really difficult to hide.

No doubt. Bird was all of those things. He was an amazing player for sure.

Wrong, oh so wrong.
Yes feet. Of course feet. But
hands can clearly make up partially for foot speed.
Bird would make steals on players that would try to set him
up before the dribble by poking the ball loose. I saw this happen
so many times.

I never said Bird was a great defender.
But he was adequate because of anticipation and
hand speed to make up for lack of foot speed.

What players do you know of that have quick feet for defense
but lack quick hands for poking prodding and getting a hand in the
face off a shot? If you do know of them, they are NOT good defenders.

And I thought we were discussing "intangibles"?
What are those?
Please.

Picking and prodding? Poking loose balls? LOL. any more cliches?

He wasnt even adequate. He was a liability.

And he certainly wasnt close to the defender that Lebron is...which is what we were discussing before you lost your head.

I think I'm lost in threads again.


I think Z is the best center who ever lived.How dare you bag him,Phil:D .

You have never played nor coached basketball.
When you play D, you keep your hands in your pockets massaging
your ovaries?

If Z could actually move...
I like him personally.
He can score, sometimes.

Oh my.

Even when Dala upsets me I wouldn't do this thing.


Shame-shame.


Don't ya just hate how you can't get her angry??

He's 7 foot 3.

He really is open much more than he gets the ball.He has good moves,but your right;the foot ops. really made him cast in stone down there.

Misogynist now?

Wow.

I guess that is what you have to resort to when you are exposed.

Why don't you go find something else to do...I enjoy discussing sports with people that know a little something about them.

You really dont fit that bill. Toodles.

Thats about the 20th time you have used that.
Kinda like I am not the expert on the holocaust like you.
OLD.

No doubt that LeBron takes too many 3's. But so does Kobe Bryant. In fact, Kobe takes far more than LeBron and his shooting % is not that much higher. And when it comes to ft/3pa ratio, LeBron is much better than Kobe. There are several ways of looking at it. Over the last four years:

3pt attempts
Kobe-1718
LeBron-1356

FT attempts
Kobe-2993
LeBron-2922

3pt %
Kobe-34.8%
LeBron-32.9%

% of all shots that are 3pt attempts
Kobe-24.7%
LeBron-20.0%

Both of them shoot far too many 3's and bail the defense out too much instead of putting more pressure on them by driving more. I don't think his not being good at the line diminishes his driving ability because it still has other positive functions besides his ability to make the ft's. It gets the other team in foul trouble earlier and makes them use the bench more. It draws attention to him and leaves his teammates open for open shots or unblocked for offensive rebound chances. I think making the ft's would definitely enhance his game but not making them doesn't diminish it. At least I don't think so.

Ateam, when I said I wanted to have Jordan or Kobe shooting the jumper, you've got to keep in context. It was the lesser of two evils. Of course you don't back off and give them open shots. But with great players, you can't take everything away from them and I'd rather live with them taking 20 footers than driving and getting in the lane.

So toodles are the intangibles.
Good stuff. The water is too deep yet again.

I would never try to get her angry.
But the exposure...
Thats easy.

Hoss-

When someone pulls that garbage out, they obviously dont know what they are talking about and have to divert away from the topic.

Again, i wish to discuss sports with people that know a little something. I dont think Pgardn fits the bill.

Great "hands" defenders. LOL.

Yes Im cracking and I need my pills.
So I can be just like you.
We have been through this.
Yes its sad.

And I feel very bad about not keeping a discussion
civil with a person of your most personable disposition.
Too funny..... civil.