Wasn't Invasor like an October foal?

I was wrong, he was born in August, Bernardini in March. He had about seven months on Bernardini when they met.

agreed...

......scav had it right.

I guess brown has to win the Belmont by 40 lengths and somehow post a beyer of 120 to get any respect. Nobody has come close to him yet. He won the Derby out of the 20th post. Toyed with the Preakness yet still dumbass Beyer doesn't like him. The Triple Crown is so hard to win especially today. If he does it he is a super horse.

:rolleyes: That's always the preface to a strong argument.

For the last five years only, I'd go with:

3yo's only, non-sprinters

1-Smarty Jones
2-Bernardini
3-Curlin
4-Big Brown
5-Lion Heart
6-Afleet Alex
7-Barbaro
8-Street Sense
9-Flower Alley
10-Birdstone

Lion Heart?

Oy vey.

my yiddish is poor....is "oy vey" kinda like "oh my"?

I already can invision all of the responses to that. I wish he hadn't broken down in the Travers because after that half in 49 and change, I have no doubt he would have lasted the 10f and then this conversation would be a whole lot different if he was a Haskell/Travers winner and a Derby runner-up.

No Invasor?

Sorry, King, I just noticed "3 years old only".

Making this list without Casino Drive is criminal.

If we go back eight years, I would like to see Fusaichi Pegasus and Sunday Break get their props.

Sunday Break probably isn't one of the 1,800 best Japanese bred horses to race in the last eight years... so he was a fairly clever choice.

However, Fu Peg was a KEE July Select sales topper - raced only in America - and his lone connection with Japan was his owner. Poor choice. Fusaichi Samurai might have been better.

Ski Captain being the most underrated dirt horse to race in America in the 90's might have been better played.

Sunday Break placed in the Grade I Wood Menorial and the Grade I Belmont.

Had Drysdale not treated him with kid gloves, he would have been more fit for the Wood, would have made the KY Derby field, and would have run down War Emblem.





Lest anyone think I am serious, I'm not. It's sad that I need to say this.

so?

Yes, why allow reasonable thinking to get in the way of your myopic view.

On Sesame Street they used to play a game called "One of these things is not like the other." I played it with your list and came up with a couple of interesting tidbits. You have two horses who actually beat older horses in their 3YO campaigns and one did it twice. You have neither of them on top. I'm not even Jewish but oy vey.

Maybe I just wasn't much of a Smarty Jones guy. I have a hard time putting him ahead of #s 2-8 on your list save Lion Heart and remember that he was only 1-1 against Birdstone.

NT

What do you mean....somehow?

I'm assuming that you do realize that once upon a time, really good horses somehow managed to run numbers in the 120s relatively often.
Easy Goer, for example, ran a 120 or better four times in his 3yo campaign.

The naysayers, even if Big Brown wins the Triple Crown, will still continue to say he's overrated. He could win the Belmont by a margain equal to Secretariat, and some, perhaps many, will still call him overrated.

Eric

It's a good thing your list is non-sprinters only... we wouldn't want a horse like Keyed Entry to sneak above the impeccable Lion Heart or something crazy like that.

So then, in your mind beating a horse that's older means more than beating a 3yo that's better than the older horse? I mean, Easy Goer beat older in the Whitney, Woodward, and JCGC......so was he better than Sunday Silence, who only beat older once? If El Gato Malo beats some of these pathetic older horses out here in CA in the Goodwood, should that elevate him over Big Brown as champion 3yo if BB wins the TC and then retires? Or what about if War Pass returns and beats BB in the Travers? Would that mean that El Gato Malo is better than War Pass? Shouldn't beating the best horses mean more than beating the oldest ones? Beating older horses doesn't mean much to me if the older horses aren't any good.

This is the kind of sentiment that I just don't understand. Do we really all have to be either worshipers or naysayers? I, for one, am not ready to call this horse one of the all-time greats.
But he is certainly very good, and I wouldn't be at all shocked if he does give us a "wow" performance in the Belmont.
At this point, there is simply no doubt that he is overrated. But that doesn't mean that he isn't CAPABLE of proving his most ardent supporters correct in the Belmont.

In your opinion, after seeing that 49 and change go up in the Travers, how did you think that race was going to play out? If Lion Heart doesn't break his leg, is it that far of a stretch to assume that he could have won that race? If he does, he's a Derby runner-up, and a Haskell/Travers winner, winning the Travers while beating the Belmont winner. Where would he fit in the conversation then?

And the goo-goos, even if Big Brown were to lose in the Belmont, would still maintain that he is one of the greats. He could lose by the length of the stretch and many would no doubt offer up one excuse or another.

Clearly you don't understand my point. If you're not giving a 3YO extra credit for beating older horses in their 3YO season then you are presenting a very skewed set of criteria.

Once again you conveniently skirted around the fact that Curlin beat older horses twice, and they happened to be the best older horses that were available. Maybe not the best handicap division, but still older horses.

I could never agree with putting a horse like Smarty Jones ahead of Curlin in terms of respective 3YO campaigns.

NT

He was NEVER in a million years winning that Travers.

Did You Consider The Trip Factor In This Beyers? 12 Hole Fla Derby
20 Hole 4 Wide Ky Derby. If Beyers Were That Good A Gauge Of Horses We Would All Be On Easy Street. They Are A Suckers Crutch.

No sane person could.

You might want to look at post #13 in this thread.

Big Brown Is Not Overated If You Compare Him To 3 Yr Olds. He Is 3 You Know. We Can't Compare Him Yet To Curlin And The Likes Because He Has Only Raced 5 Times. Curlin Is 4 Now And More Matured Get Big A Chance To Do This.

If you want to play God, and talk about ifs, then you need to reassess your list. But be please careful, it's like lighting a match during drought season.

I'm not playing God at all. I'm just asking you about your opinion of that particular race. No right or wrong answers here.

Well your question becomes irrelevant if we take the biggest "if" of all into consideration... what "if" Barbaro doesn't break down in the Preakness? Basing lists on what could have beens is absolutely pointless.

Ok. I didn't think getting an opinion would be that hard. Nevermind.

and we lost better than honour?

If you want my opinion, here it is: Your list stinks.

First off all, Lion Heart is a runner-up and that only in any Triple Crown race which, based upon the skewed logic you've presented, disqualifies him to a spot well below say more than a dozen 3-year-olds included and not included in your list. But because I'm off tomorrow, I'll play.

Street Sense is a Kentucky Derby winner, a Preakness runner-up, a Jim Dandy winner, a Travers winner and a runner-up against elders in the Kentucky Cup. How, in a million years that qualifies him for a lower spot than a horse like Lion Heart is flabbergasting.

Or how Afleet Alex, who won the Arkansas Derby, was a Derby runner-up, a Preakness winner and a Belmont winner is below Lion Heart is good for a segment on The Daily Show.

Here's one which really made me laugh... Flower Alley ABOVE Birdstone! Flower Alley won the Travers, Birdstone won the BELMONT STAKES AND THE TRAVERS!!!! Oh my!!!!

No, all don't have to be one or the other. My own opinion aside, everyone is entitled to their own opinion, and I enjoy reading all of them. However, be that as it may, I completely disagree with you on the "there is simply no doubt" -- although I'll agree with this part . . . that's your opinion. LOL.

My point is that I think regardless of what this horse does, I think he will always have critics -- and that's the interesting part. In part, it might be due to the horse himself, perhaps the weakness of the crop as one example. However, I think it's become far more about the trainer and the connections. That won't go away.

Eric

Excellent point.

Eric