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-   -   Big Brown, Big Red and IEAH (http://www.derbytrail.com/forums/showthread.php?t=22571)

SniperSB23 05-19-2008 09:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GenuineRisk
Win or lose, I don't think he'll run after the Belmont. I can't imagine any way for his value to increase as a stud- I don't see running in any of the summer classics or in the BCC making any difference to his value.

Dutrow already said running a race like the Haskell would be pointless as it would do nothing for his value. He said if the horse is sound and the owners want to run him after the Belmont he would just run the Travers and BC Classic.

ArlJim78 05-19-2008 09:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ELA
People will laugh at Baffert's comments, just like they laughed at Desormeaux's proclamation (notice how people just aren't laughing quite as hard) -- in part because they think the comments are melodramatic, and in part because I think some people think they know better.

If Big Brown wins the Belmont and retires -- for whatever reason, real, fabricated, or whatever, he will have won the Triple Crown. Put an asterisk next to his name or don't. That's up to you. But it won't change the fact that he won it. If he wins, keeps going, doesn't win, keeps going, etc. -- people will always have an easy target here. The trainer and owners are an easy target, and always will be. If it wasn't that, there are plenty of other aspects that could easily be critisized.

Anyway, here's a horse who is getting this sport and business noticed a bit -- for good reasons and bad. Take what you like and leave the rest.

Eric

I think we're all aware that if he wins the Belmont he wins the TC. the question here on this thread wasn't about criticism of his owners, it is simply do you feel that comparisons to Secretariat are in order at this point given the mediocre competition he's faced?

jim

CSC 05-19-2008 10:03 AM

Here's a list of horses he's ridden:

Winning Colors
Thunder Gulch
Silver Charm
Singspiel
Da Hoss
Editor's Note
Hennessy
Soul of the Matter
One Dreamer
Bertrando
Golden Attraction
Brocco
Quest for Fame
In Excess
Farma Way
Steinlen
Turkoman
Broad Brush
Point Given
Silverbulletday
Serenas Song
Escena
Victory Gallop
Buddy Gil
Rock Hard Ten

ArlJim78 05-19-2008 10:05 AM

i would like to see that list include the best BSF and sorted.

ELA 05-19-2008 10:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ArlJim78
I think we're all aware that if he wins the Belmont he wins the TC. the question here on this thread wasn't about criticism of his owners, it is simply do you feel that comparisons to Secretariat are in order at this point given the mediocre competition he's faced?

jim

No offense, but I think it's a foolish discussion. The only common element is that they would both be TC winners. If he retires -- no. If he goes on, we'll see. Today? No, I don't think the comparison is anywhere in order.

Just watch what happens if he goes undefeated and wins the BC Classic. Regardless, I don't think Curlin will go, certainly not in an effort to duck Big Brown. If I was the owner of Big Brown, I'd want no part of Curlin right now. Again, regardless, the comparisons to Secretariat, if they one day become remotely valid -- will never be unbiased or unfettered. But as of today, to me it's a non-starter.

Eric

Grassy Knoll 518 05-19-2008 10:29 AM

How Can Anyone Compare Big Brown To Secretariat When IEAH & DUTROW are Known Crooks
 
Wake Up And Smell The Horse **** Please. Big Brown Performances Have Been Great But They Were Done Artificially Thru Steroids & Illegal Tactics. Just Look At The Group Surrounding Him Their A Bunch Cheats Who Will Do Anything To Make A Dollar. Just Like In Other Sports Cheaters Are Allways Ahead Of the Testing and Rules (Ben Johnson, Marion Jones, Barry Bonds, Roger Clemens, BALCO LABS). IEAH and DUTROW R No Different Their Using Somethin On Their Horses That Is Undetectable By Current Testing. So To Compare This Artificial Horse and Shady Group Of Criminals To A HORSE RACING ICON Is Ridiculuos. Its Guys Like DUTROW and IEAH Who R Killing The BREED In NORTH AMERICA With What They Give Thier Horses Whether Legal Or Illegal. Big Brown No Matter What He Accomplishes Should Never Be Mentioned With Secretariat Because Of The People Hes Connected With Their Flat Out Cheats Period. Lets Go Casino Drive...........

Coach Pants 05-19-2008 10:34 AM

Rabble Rabble Caps Lock Rabble

SniperSB23 05-19-2008 10:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Grassy Knoll 518
Wake Up And Smell The Horse **** Please. Big Brown Performances Have Been Great But They Were Done Artificially Thru Steroids & Illegal Tactics. Just Look At The Group Surrounding Him Their A Bunch Cheats Who Will Do Anything To Make A Dollar. Just Like In Other Sports Cheaters Are Allways Ahead Of the Testing and Rules (Ben Johnson, Marion Jones, Barry Bonds, Roger Clemens, BALCO LABS). IEAH and DUTROW R No Different Their Using Somethin On Their Horses That Is Undetectable By Current Testing. So To Compare This Artificial Horse and Shady Group Of Criminals To A HORSE RACING ICON Is Ridiculuos. Its Guys Like DUTROW and IEAH Who R Killing The BREED In NORTH AMERICA With What They Give Thier Horses Whether Legal Or Illegal. Big Brown No Matter What He Accomplishes Should Never Be Mentioned With Secretariat Because Of The People Hes Connected With Their Flat Out Cheats Period. Lets Go Casino Drive...........

And I'm sure Secretariat never had anything but hay, oats, and water. :rolleyes:

sumitas 05-19-2008 10:35 AM

BB needs to be tested and have samples preserved so that they can be tested again in the future.

HaloWishingwell 05-19-2008 10:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind
I'm not sure what number is bigger.....the number of horses Gary Stevens rode or the number of best horses he ever rode.

I'm glad this thread took a turn in discussion about Gary Stevens. BIG ROWN mentioned with BIG RED? Only in a crayola box.

fpsoxfan 05-19-2008 10:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Grassy Knoll 518
Wake Up And Smell The Horse **** Please. Big Brown Performances Have Been Great But They Were Done Artificially Thru Steroids & Illegal Tactics. Just Look At The Group Surrounding Him Their A Bunch Cheats Who Will Do Anything To Make A Dollar. Just Like In Other Sports Cheaters Are Allways Ahead Of the Testing and Rules (Ben Johnson, Marion Jones, Barry Bonds, Roger Clemens, BALCO LABS). IEAH and DUTROW R No Different Their Using Somethin On Their Horses That Is Undetectable By Current Testing. So To Compare This Artificial Horse and Shady Group Of Criminals To A HORSE RACING ICON Is Ridiculuos. Its Guys Like DUTROW and IEAH Who R The BREED In NORTH AMERICA With What They Give Thier Horses Whether Legal Or Illegal. Big Brown No Matter What He Accomplishes Should Never Be Mentioned With Secretariat Because Of The People Hes Connected With Their Flat Out Cheats Period. Lets Go Casino Drive...........

Oh Boy. We lose one and pick up another. It must be Happy Time in the local asylym.

GenuineRisk 05-19-2008 10:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SniperSB23
Dutrow already said running a race like the Haskell would be pointless as it would do nothing for his value. He said if the horse is sound and the owners want to run him after the Belmont he would just run the Travers and BC Classic.

Since they were going to put him on turf, they might figure he'll like poly, but I just don't see why they'd bother with the BCC as I don't think it'll increase his value any.

It'd be nice if they did run him after the Belmont, even for just two races, but I just doubt it.

blackthroatedwind 05-19-2008 10:42 AM

I don't think Eric ( ELA ) is getting the credit he deserves for quoting one of the great Rock 'n Roll songs of all time. I, for one, was proud.

SniperSB23 05-19-2008 10:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GenuineRisk
Since they were going to put him on turf, they might figure he'll like poly, but I just don't see why they'd bother with the BCC as I don't think it'll increase his value any.

It'd be nice if they did run him after the Belmont, even for just two races, but I just doubt it.

It's still worth $4 million to the winner and even if he loses it shouldn't hurt his value as they can blame the junk track. All they'd lose is the ability to call him an undefeated Triple Crown winner.

CSC 05-19-2008 10:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HaloWishingwell
I'm glad this thread took a turn in discussion about Gary Stevens. BIG ROWN mentioned with BIG RED? Only in a crayola box.

Don't forget Gary Stevens does work for IEAH so his opinion is not unbiased.

GenuineRisk 05-19-2008 10:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SniperSB23
It's still worth $4 million to the winner and even if he loses it shouldn't hurt his value as they can blame the junk track. All they'd lose is the ability to call him an undefeated Triple Crown winner.

That's a point, but I figure they'd weigh the injury possibility vs. $4 million and play it safe. I'd be happy to be wrong, though.

Coach Pants 05-19-2008 11:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DaHoss9698
I think you need to be tested. Seriously. Between never being right, the constant posting while intoxicated and the whole loving the animals in the creepiest way ever.

I think he was talking about taking semen samples from Big Brown. And in an indirect way he was volunteering his services.

ArlJim78 05-19-2008 11:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ELA
No offense, but I think it's a foolish discussion.

Eric

why would I be offended, I wasn't the one who started the thread.

Cannon Shell 05-19-2008 03:48 PM

I'm not sure why they would be concerned with the horses 'value' since the breeding rights have already been sold. If he wins the TC his stud fee wont go up or down no matter what he wins or loses. I cant believe that they can get more than $100k and if he were to win the TC and if he were to get beat in the Travers I cant believe they wouldnt still get the same 100k.

Cannon Shell 05-19-2008 03:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Grassy Knoll 518
Wake Up And Smell The Horse **** Please. Big Brown Performances Have Been Great But They Were Done Artificially Thru Steroids & Illegal Tactics. Just Look At The Group Surrounding Him Their A Bunch Cheats Who Will Do Anything To Make A Dollar. Just Like In Other Sports Cheaters Are Allways Ahead Of the Testing and Rules (Ben Johnson, Marion Jones, Barry Bonds, Roger Clemens, BALCO LABS). IEAH and DUTROW R No Different Their Using Somethin On Their Horses That Is Undetectable By Current Testing. So To Compare This Artificial Horse and Shady Group Of Criminals To A HORSE RACING ICON Is Ridiculuos. Its Guys Like DUTROW and IEAH Who R Killing The BREED In NORTH AMERICA With What They Give Thier Horses Whether Legal Or Illegal. Big Brown No Matter What He Accomplishes Should Never Be Mentioned With Secretariat Because Of The People Hes Connected With Their Flat Out Cheats Period. Lets Go Casino Drive...........

Please go away...

ateamstupid 05-19-2008 03:51 PM

It's threads like this that create such polarization between Big Brown fans and detractors, because detractors can now point to this ****** and say "He's good, but he's not Secretariat", as if every fan of the horse has made that comparison.

Cannon Shell 05-19-2008 03:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ateamstupid
It's threads like this that create such polarization between Big Brown fans and detractors, because detractors can now point to this ****** and say "He's good, but he's not Secretariat", as if every fan of the horse has made that comparison.

Big Brown sucks. He only got a 78 CSSF (Cannon Shell Speed Figure). He got a raw CSSF of 106 but got a 28 point reduction for possum head running second.

Payson Dave 05-19-2008 04:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell
Big Brown sucks. He only got a 78 CSSF (Cannon Shell Speed Figure). He got a raw CSSF of 106 but got a 28 point reduction for possum head running second.

that does make ya wonder

Cannon Shell 05-19-2008 04:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Payson Dave
that does make ya wonder

-28 for PHF in routes on dirt
-18 for PHF in dirt sprints

I told him about this but he didnt think it was funny...

TheSpyder 05-19-2008 04:54 PM

Hey Chuck, What was the KNS CSSF number?
Quote:

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell
-28 for PHF in routes on dirt
-18 for PHF in dirt sprints

I told him about this but he didnt think it was funny...


Cannon Shell 05-19-2008 04:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheSpyder
Hey Chuck, What was the KNS CSSF number?

96

67 raw number but added +29, using the "same vet as catalano" factor.

Payson Dave 05-19-2008 04:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell
-28 for PHF in routes on dirt
-18 for PHF in dirt sprints

I told him about this but he didnt think it was funny...


He must be taking himself to seriously....if so he may be the only one who takes him seriously

Cannon Shell 05-19-2008 05:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Payson Dave
He must be taking himself to seriously....if so he may be the only one who takes him seriously

His barber doesn't

TheSpyder 05-19-2008 05:29 PM

Very nice!:p
Quote:

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell
96

67 raw number but added +29, using the "same vet as catalano" factor.


Danzig 05-19-2008 05:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind
I have actually worked up a quick translation of the initial post for those not willing to read it in its entirety.....



I have very little perspective on the top horses of the game over even the last 10 years, but I will pick the horse generally considered the best of the last half century, and completely inaccurately compare Big Brown to him.


the 'blackthroated digest condensed post'--excellent idea!

docicu3 05-19-2008 11:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DaHoss9698
I thought Steve made it pretty clear, no?


Originally Posted by Kasept
Congratulations.. you just bought your ticket out of here for insulting yet another person who works inside the industry and has more credibility here than you... Those that can't interract with others to the standards set here can ply their nonsense elsewhere...

Bye..

Thanks Hoss I didn't see that previously and have not read enough of the guys posts to be aware of how slimy these posts were. I was giving the guy the benefit of the doubt but obviously I was better off not knowing more about what earned the guy the death penalty here.......next case professor!!

docicu3 05-19-2008 11:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fpsoxfan
Oh Boy. We lose one and pick up another. It must be Happy Time in the local asylym.

hey

Or they are one in the same......


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