Sorry for making a relevant point that no one had considered and which would explain why prosecuting people who cancel after the bell is a practical impossibility.

I find it hard to believe that manipulation of betting pools is legal regardless of your legal expertise

Any canceling should be ended when the bell goes off, and likely even before. Allowing this is just plain silly.

We aren't talking about manipulation of pools. We're talking about cancelling tickets after the race has started, which appears to be allowed because of a glitch in the system. Yes, the cancelling of tickets happens to manipulate pools, but unless it is provable that a person intended to manipulate a pool (which may not even be a crime-I'm not sure), it would be nearly impossible to charge someone with a crime.

Don't apologize.

If you in fact are a lawyer or law enforcement, I apologize for my flippant comment and await your next opinion regarding this matter with bated breath.

Growing up, there was always a 5 second delay (to cancel a ticket) after the start of a race that I believe was in place to leave tellers time to cancel any mistakes so they wouldn't have to eat the bet.

The situation was if you had a sprawling 3 room OTB on a weekday night when no one was there, you got Charlestown on the big screen in the empty room, and if your horse didn't break well in the 4.5 furlong dash, you cancel your bet and wait for the next one.

They did away with it about five years or so ago I believe. I certainly don't know of any betters or tellers or betting tellers who've done it since.

Huh? If cancelling a ticket is pool manipulation then how hard would it be to prove intent? "I pushed the button by mistake" defense? Wouldnt fraud be a possible crime?

Would any money actually be lost by closing wagering as soon as the first horse is loaded into the gate? Once everyone was used to it wouldn't they just place their bets 30 seconds early and handle would be just the same? Sure you'd have people not getting their bets in on time and blaming the new system but in reality those would be the same people that wind up not getting their bets in on time as it is. And if you are 5 seconds late closing the pools sometime then they would still be loading horses when the pool closes so you wouldn't gain a significant advantage.

But cancelling a ticket is legal. Even if there was a law that said cancelling a ticket after the race started was illegal, you would still have to prove the bettor intended to break the law and knew the race had started. The bettor could always say "Hey, I made the wrong bet, told the clerk, and he cancelled it. I didn't know the race had started." Now, if cancelling a ticket after the race started required some extensive computer work like hacking some computer program, that's another story.

And there's always the possibility that the bettor is an idiot and decides to tell a bunch of people what he and the mutuel clerk are doing.

why if cancelled the bettor has seen his horse or horses have no change of ticket coming in. some law against that.

I'd be very surprised if these cancellations aren't part of a dirty scheme between the tracks and big bettors. As has been said many times before when this topic has come up, it seems that this day and age they should be able to come up with a system to shut down all betting the exact second that gate opens. Until then, we can argue all we want about this but it's not going to change a single thing. If it bothers people so much, then don't wager.

So then you're going to have to have some set standard as to when a horse is deemed to have "no chance" after the start. Does anyone really think we are going to see a law that says "when a confirmed front runner breaks slower than usual, he is herby deemed to have no chance. And any tickets using this horse that are cancelled after the start of the race, intentionally or unintentionally, can be used as proof of illegal activity"?

Prosecuting people for cancelling tickets at any time is impossible unless there is some other overt act, such as hacking into a computer or pushing a button that keep the pools open longer than allowed by law.

Yes.

Sure it does Hossy, but come on we are the little people. I wish I had inside information on stocks, I wish I Knew every judge in every county to get me out of a ticket. Do I want an $11 payout on a win ticket as opposed to $10?
No doubt, but the question lies in the fact is there anything you and I can do about it?? Likely not. I don't want the answer to be shutting down betting a minute before post.

You are giving the tracks way too much credit. Very few if any are clever enough to take care of big bettors in a legal fashion, let alone a possibly illegal one.

According to what we are hearing, at least publically, they would have no idea if this was happening anyway.

Which isnt the answer if people are gaining access to the pools anyway.