NYTHA Lasix Primer & Letter to NYS RWB

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by cmorioles

I'm not ignoring this at all. I'm ceding that point. I'd be foolish not to do so. If you want to pretend there aren't trainers using Lasix because they think it gives the horse an edge, we'll just have to disagree. I know better.

So if you were a trainer and you knew that giving a shot of lasix would make it far less likely that your horse would bleed and in the even it did would in most cases reduce the severity of the episode you would still not spend the $20?

How can you get an edge if everyone else is using the same thing?

[cmorioles]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

So if you were a trainer and you knew that giving a shot of lasix would make it far less likely that your horse would bleed and in the even it did would in most cases reduce the severity of the episode you would still not spend the $20?

How can you get an edge if everyone else is using the same thing?

You can't get an edge, but you can certainly put yourself at a disadvantage. Not using Lasix is a HUGE disadvantage, even when horses don't bleed. You would look as silly debating that as I would if I said Lasix doesn't help with bleeding. Both are indisputable, if you take the blinkers off.

[Fearless Leader]

Is it possible that CMORIOLES is Barry The Hypocrite Irwin in disguise ? He is making the same stupid, baseless arguments.

[cmorioles]

Originally Posted by Fearless Leader

Is it possible that CMORIOLES is Barry The Hypocrite Irwin in disguise ? He is making the same stupid, baseless arguments.

No, I'm not, but I can assure you my arguments are not baseless. Please though, tell me which arguments you think are stupid and/or baseless?

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by cmorioles

You can't get an edge, but you can certainly not put yourself at a disadvantage. Not using Lasix is a HUGE disadvantage, even when horses don't bleed. You would look as silly debating that as I would if I said Lasix doesn't help with bleeding. Both are indisputable, if you take the blinkers off.

So are you making the case that those w/o lasix are actually the problem? I'm just pointing out the ludicrous rantings of cleanracing.org.

If everyone has the same opportunity to use lasix in a highly regulated (except seemingly Maryland) fashion, therefore giving no one a bulit in advantage (because there is a choice) then what is the problem especially considering that the horses who do bleed or are predisposed to bleed (often unknowingly until it happens) benefit physically from it?

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by Fearless Leader

Is it possible that CMORIOLES is Barry The Hypocrite Irwin in disguise ? He is making the same stupid, baseless arguments.

No Barry would have insulted me, the entire board and left in a huff.

[cmorioles]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

So are you making the case that those w/o lasix are actually the problem? I'm just pointing out the ludicrous rantings of cleanracing.org.

If everyone has the same opportunity to use lasix in a highly regulated (except seemingly Maryland) fashion, therefore giving no one a bulit in advantage (because there is a choice) then what is the problem especially considering that the horses who do bleed or are predisposed to bleed (often unknowingly until it happens) benefit physically from it?

Now we've come full circle. The only problem I have is that all horses, whether they need it or not, are virtually forced to race on a drug. I realize that horse racing operates in its own little world, but where else in the world would this be considered acceptable, or even tolerated?

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by cmorioles

Now we've come full circle. The only problem I have is that all horses, whether they need it or not, are virtually forced to race on a drug. I realize that horse racing operates in its own little world, but where else in the world would this be considered acceptable, or even tolerated?

I think that "forced to run with a drug" is a little over the top. I mean they are "forced" to do just about everything that they do. Lasix is about as innocuous a drug as you will find. The thing is that its preventative properties make it useful for all horses therefore making the statement "whether they need it or not" a bit misleading.

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by cmorioles

So we are back to this...just drug all horses whether they need it or not.

I keep hearing this about only helping a horse run to its ability, but I don't think it is true.

and i will ask for a third time, how can you know if a horse will bleed? or when?

and thinking isn't a fact, it's an opinion.

[cmorioles]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

I think that "forced to run with a drug" is a little over the top. I mean they are "forced" to do just about everything that they do. Lasix is about as innocuous a drug as you will find. The thing is that its preventative properties make it useful for all horses therefore making the statement "whether they need it or not" a bit misleading.

I don't doubt that you do think that. However, try passing that one off on people outside the game. Racing is legal now, but it doesn't have to always be that way. Our sport is headed for some heavy scrutiny and I really think the fact that nearly every horse in the US gets Lasix is not something that will go over well, no matter how innocuous it may be.

[Riot]

Originally Posted by cmorioles

The biggest thing I have trouble with is that nobody wants to test if horses that don't need Lasix run faster with it than without it. Everything I've learned about racing in 30 years of following the sport seems to point to the fact that it does, but nobody wants to address this.

It is so rewarding to do measurable science in a vacuum. Why have Gluck, with million of dollars in donations dedicated to equine science? You know, get the answers people want? Answers like, "How fast do horses run on lasix, versus off lasix?

I don't know what's worse: not knowing it exists, or repeatedly and deliberately ignoring it exists.

[cmorioles]

Originally Posted by Danzig

and i will ask for a third time, how can you know if a horse will bleed? or when?

and thinking isn't a fact, it's an opinion.

You can't. I've been around a long time though. I don't remember any irreparable damage done to horses that didn't get Lasix until they actually visibly bled. Horses that bled profusely through the nostrils were then given Lasix and went on to be champions. Why can't we wait? Why does nearly every single horse have to be given drugs "just in case"?

[Riot]

Originally Posted by cmorioles

A lot of good information, but also plenty omitted and clearly biased.

Reality has a distinctive bias towards objectivity.

[Danzig]

try passing it off on people outside the game...what, they're suddenly going to care?
if by some strange chance someone outside the game asks me why horses are given lasix, i'll explain that horses can hemorrage due to fluid in the lungs while exerting themselves, and lasix prevents that.
or do you think these suddenly interested people aren't going to understand that? or as the article i posted the other day said would you rather withold hay and water for 24-48 hours and explain why that's ok?

as for waiting until a bleeding episode-as has been written and read by me and others, a significant bleeding episode can cause permanent damage. do you feel it's better to wait til a horse bleeds, and then just cross your fingers it's not significant enough to cause damage? or just go ahead and do what you know full well will prevent an episode and all that accompanies it?

i know if i had significant money invested, i'd rather prevent than hear an apology. you really think it's better to have preventable bleeding episodes than use lasix? you'd rather the choice be taken away? after all, it's currently up to each trainer or owner to decide. and the owner is the one ponying up all the money, whether to give beforehand, or possibly have wasted money by not paying for lasix and having a possibly lung damaged horse.

[cmorioles]

Originally Posted by Riot

It is so rewarding to do measurable science in a vacuum. Why have Gluck, with million of dollars in donations dedicated to equine science? You know, get the answers people want? Answers like, "How fast do horses run on lasix, versus off lasix?

I don't know what's worse: not knowing it exists, or repeatedly and deliberately ignoring it exists.

I tried running this through babblefish, but it couldn't translate the post either. I seem to remember you quoted a study that said some horses run faster, others do not. In any case, the studies I saw were vague and the conclusions dubious at best. Surely we can do better in 2012.

[cmorioles]

Originally Posted by Danzig

try passing it off on people outside the game...what, they're suddenly going to care?
if by some strange chance someone outside the game asks me why horses are given lasix, i'll explain that horses can hemorrage due to fluid in the lungs while exerting themselves, and lasix prevents that.
or do you think these suddenly interested people aren't going to understand that? or as the article i posted the other day said would you rather withold hay and water for 24-48 hours and explain why that's ok?

and can you please answer if there is a way to tell if/when a horse can bleed? i would like to know. obviously if you can know when it would happen, you could then know who to give it to.
or are you ignoring the question because the answer is you can't ever tell until it happens?

Yes, they will care, when breakdowns are rampant and drug use is widespread. Oh, they will care, at least long enough to ruin the game. You can count on that.

[Riot]

Originally Posted by cmorioles

I tried running this through babblefish, but it couldn't translate the post either. I seem to remember you quoted a study that said some horses run faster, others do not. In any case, the studies I saw were vague and the conclusions dubious at best. Surely we can do better in 2012.

You don't have a clue how to read a scientific study. Your dismissal of what you don't like is ridiculous.

"Deliberately ignore" it is. Don't walk in here and pretend you want to find out any "truth" about lasix. It's obvious you have an agenda, you're sticking to it, and it's not based upon any objectivity of what is best for horses.

Here's your challenge: give any objective evidence at all to prove that lasix is harmful to horses.

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by cmorioles

Yes, they will care, when breakdowns are rampant and drug use is widespread. Oh, they will care, at least long enough to ruin the game. You can count on that.

er, according to some, breakdowns are already rampant, and drug use is widespread.
i bet many of the over 100k on hand may 5 in churchill knew nothing about o'neills several milkshaking violations, or other issues with racing officials. they just cared about having a good time.
i've got race photos in my office. i'll let you know the first time someone asks me about drugs. had them up for years, hasn't happened yet.

[cmorioles]

Originally Posted by Riot

Here's your challenge: give any objective evidence at all to prove that lasix is harmful to horses.

Where have I ever said it was harmful? I am quite sure I have never said that. Feel free to keep making things up though.

[pointman]

Originally Posted by cmorioles

I tried running this through babblefish, but it couldn't translate the post either. I seem to remember you quoted a study that said some horses run faster, others do not. In any case, the studies I saw were vague and the conclusions dubious at best. Surely we can do better in 2012.

As vague and conclusive as the assertion that Lasix is a performance enhancer?