BC Sprint Purse Being Withheld

[10 pnt move up]

Originally Posted by freddymo

Tricky.. Don't think CHRB has the power to scratch a horse they feel will test hot. They afforded connections with pre race test results, how could CHRB KNOW that the horse wouldnt clear over the next few days, especially given the transparency they were afforded? If they scratch the horse connections certainly could claim they were outside their authority. they are there to inform and adjudicate not make decisions on behalf of connections. Would guess you would need to re write procedure and have it read your horse must test clear in advance for them to have authority to scratch a horse. Should that be the case in stakes? Maybe

shouldnt it been when all things are considered what is the best decision for the horse, the bettor, the sport? cmon.

Just to add, if this was just one instance of a bad decision being made in terms of protecting the people who support the sport it would be one thing, this type of thing is continually happening which just shows a lack of consideration for those who support the game (with their wallets i might add).

[KidCruz]

Originally Posted by freddymo

Ok Joe Drape..

What do you think Privman/Byk/Serling are on the Ellis payroll? Steve had Allday on for 30 minutes who basically called the decision to use a banned drug irresponsible. Guess Steve's stipend will be a bag of coal this Christmas.
You figure Privman is devoid of journalist integrity because he didnt throw the book at him in a NON Editorial piece. Who knows what Privman's opinion on the matter is its not his job to write what he thinks only what he knows.
Serling is no lover of cheaters have you ever read a tweet or post that suggested such? I read a lot of ...were did that race come from, WHATEVER, and other reasonable challenges to new barns miracle improvements. Now because NYRA hired a well spoken intelligent trainer to share some knowledge with viewers you figure Serling is part of the conspiracy to defraud bettors?

The whole article you posted boils down to competent trainers not wanting to offer free education to the people they compete against right? I wouldnt want to teach someone for free either

I'll be able to follow up more later but I want to make clear: I am a much better writer than Joe Drape.

[freddymo]

Originally Posted by 10 pnt move up

shouldnt it been when all things are considered what is the best decision for the horse, the bettor, the sport? cmon.

Just to add, if this was just one instance of a bad decision being made in terms of protecting the people who support the sport it would be one thing, this type of thing is continually happening which just shows a lack of consideration for those who support the game (with their wallets i might add).

I dont disagree in theory you make plenty of sense. They have no power to scratch a horse especially if the connects are of opinion horse will test clean. CHRB would be potentially liable to a huge lawsuit in theory

[3kings]

Originally Posted by freddymo

I dont disagree in theory you make plenty of sense. They have no power to scratch a horse especially if the connects are of opinion horse will test clean. CHRB would be potentially liable to a huge lawsuit in theory

I agree but someone should do the right thing. Breeders Cup doesn't want to because the race was already decimated by scratches and it will lose handle. The CHRB is afraid of over stepping its boundaries and being taken to court. The owner/trainer roll the dice and hope for the best. It would be nice if one of these entities would look out for the bettor or the best interest of the sport.

PS to RHT. Every once in a while when there is an interesting topic can you not dumb it down with this Baffert horse is great all other horses not trained by him suck. Thanks in advance.

[freddymo]

I agree with all of what you are saying BUT there was not a mechanism in place save CHRB overstepping authority. I dont think they had power to force Ellis to scratch.. They gave him the rope on the dope and he is swinging.

This is tricky. Apparently this horse has been on Vet's list because of Winstrol treatment before although I have not confirmed it. If true and I am not saying it is I think connections glossed over the geldings history to make this appear as a 1 off ....If true that's not cool

[KidCruz]

Originally Posted by Kasept

Like what? What more is at play? Say specifically. You can chide Ellis for taking a chance with a compounded steroid that's not as consistent as the steroid era commercial products (Winstrol, Equipoise, etc.) were and for choosing to run after the discussions with CHRB, but that's about it. He and everything that went on leading up to Cup were well known by the parties involved starting with the record of Masochistic getting a stanozolol injection days after the Pat O'Brien.

The recriminations should be directed towards the governing bodies, no? Everyone was aware of a potential problem weeks out and handled it poorly. They had a trace positive 22 days out and everyone took a wait and see. Then 8 days out they still have it but don't tell Ellis until 3 days out when he can't get a test turned around. Then the entry is accepted and dice rolled. If you're doing out of competition testing, USE IT PROACTIVELY. Horse can't enter.

Separately, I know it's important at Pace Advantage to be a cool kid and **** on everything and everyone involved in the sport, but that doesn't play here. Andy doesn't know Ellis at all as stated above and I know him from having him on radio maybe twice a year. I think I've shaken his hand twice. His reputation is pristine and it's completely understandable that a trainer wouldn't care to reveal what their operation does when attempting to improve a claimed horse. Why would they and alert other outfits to things they may be overlooking in their training?

As for criticism of Jay Privman writing a factually accurate spot news article, I've never seen anything so bizarre. And as for me, ATR coverage of the story was instantaneous and thorough featuring Ellis on all aspects of the circumstances, Dr. Steven Allday, the leading practicing veterinarian in the sport on stanozolol and its' properties and attorney Alan Foreman of RMTC, ARCI, Maryland Jockey Club and Thoroughbred Horseman's Association on the regulatory aspects.

But you didn't listen to any of those segments, did you? I'll summarize their appearances. Ellis is embarrassed and would have handled things differently knowing what he knows now about the steroid in question. Allday criticized him for playing with fire with an unstable metabolic. Foreman said testing continues to be stringent and effective down now to the picogram and the protocols for steroids have effectively eliminated them from the game. If operations want to use them the way Ellis did twice this year between layoffs or on the farm bring horses back from injury, etc., they better be sure the product is out of the horses' system before running. In other words, though the entry management was handled badly, the testing system worked.

Going forward there's execution elements that can be addressed out of this incident which is a good thing. If you're going to out of competition test, put it to use and refuse entry to avoid a problem. Of course it's more important to feign outrage and attack anyone involved in any way rather than understand the hows and whys and potential for improvement.

This is an issue that people are just never going to see eye to eye on and we just have to learn to live with it I guess. I personally don't believe a horse that romped in an allowance race needs to be injected with foreign Winstrol two days later. You think "The horse wins at Del Mar and Tuesday you give him a little anabolic . . . " I think that Ellis was, at the least, reckless in the way he treated the horse from the injection to the decision to run to the decision to keep quiet until two days ago. You congratulated him for not giving the horse arsenic.

Two different viewpoints and I'm happy on my side.

That said, your interviews yesterday and your discussion today were great and I learn a ton from your show. Thank you as always and enjoy the time off and the New Year.

[Kasept]

Originally Posted by KidCruz

This is an issue that people are just never going to see eye to eye on and we just have to learn to live with it I guess. I personally don't believe a horse that romped in an allowance race needs to be injected with foreign Winstrol two days later. You think "The horse wins at Del Mar and Tuesday you give him a little anabolic . . . " I think that Ellis was, at the least, reckless in the way he treated the horse from the injection to the decision to run to the decision to keep quiet until two days ago. You congratulated him for not giving the horse arsenic.

Two different viewpoints and I'm happy on my side.

That said, your interviews yesterday and your discussion today were great and I learn a ton from your show. Thank you as always and enjoy the time off and the New Year.

Appreciate you listening, your viewpoint and the kind wishes. There's a bunch of moving parts to this and those in position to prevent the unnecessary and embarrassing incident (Ellis through BC) failed.

[blackthroatedwind]

Originally Posted by KidCruz

This is an issue that people are just never going to see eye to eye on and we just have to learn to live with it I guess. I personally don't believe a horse that romped in an allowance race needs to be injected with foreign Winstrol two days later. You think "The horse wins at Del Mar and Tuesday you give him a little anabolic . . . " I think that Ellis was, at the least, reckless in the way he treated the horse from the injection to the decision to run to the decision to keep quiet until two days ago. You congratulated him for not giving the horse arsenic.

Two different viewpoints and I'm happy on my side.

That said, your interviews yesterday and your discussion today were great and I learn a ton from your show. Thank you as always and enjoy the time off and the New Year.

Where's the apology to me?

[cmorioles]

Ellis tried to play by the rules though he made a dumb decision at the end.

That said, the rules have to change. Here is a guy skipping G1s where he'd be favored to instead put his horse on steroids. This isn't some sick or injured horse making a comeback. It was a horse in training that had just easily won a race. It was planned AHEAD of time.

If he truly can't race without that, I think racing could survive with horses like him not having three starts a year. Also, I'll add, this isn't a Masochistic thing. Ellis does this rather routinely with horses (male and female) right after starts. It isn't too hard to figure out looking at the vet lists.

[Kasept]

Originally Posted by cmorioles

Ellis tried to play by the rules though he made a dumb decision at the end.

That said, the rules have to change. Here is a guy skipping G1s where he'd be favored to instead put his horse on steroids. This isn't some sick or injured horse making a comeback. It was a horse in training that had just easily won a race. It was planned AHEAD of time.

If he truly can't race without that, I think racing could survive with horses like him not having three starts a year. Also, I'll add, this isn't a Masochistic thing. Ellis does this rather routinely with horses (male and female) right after starts. It isn't too hard to figure out looking at the vet lists.

Well put all around Craig. It definitely is a habit and practice thing. What frustrates over and above the decision making from Ellis is the fact that mechanisms are available to have excluded the entry. That's an added layer of protection for players, the horse and industry. The BC sure seems to be eluding responsibility in this too.

[cmorioles]

Originally Posted by Kasept

Well put all around Craig. It definitely is a habit and practice thing. What frustrates over and above the decision making from Ellis is the fact that mechanisms are available to have excluded the entry. That's an added layer of protection for players, the horse and industry. The BC sure seems to be eluding responsibility in this too.

Maybe I'm wrong, but I thought the BC wasn't told due to rules in place. Have some catching up to do on ATR tonight.

[freddymo]

Originally Posted by Kasept

Well put all around Craig. It definitely is a habit and practice thing. What frustrates over and above the decision making from Ellis is the fact that mechanisms are available to have excluded the entry. That's an added layer of protection for players, the horse and industry. The BC sure seems to be eluding responsibility in this too.

As the most important source for Racing News etc. You are in a VERY tough spot. Very hard to ask Ellis Yo what's with the vet's list after races and the 35% winners with 60 + days rest? How do you skip a G1 after galloping in an allowance? You cant ask him, Ron what was it in the first 48 hours after galloping in an allowance that convinced you and the attending vet that Winstrol was indicated? You just cant, none of these guys would EVER tolerant this scrutiny nor is it your place.

There is some underlying truth to Paul's Blog. I also have held certain trainers beyond approach. I was first to come out and tweet Sam she isnt a cheat. I still don't think she is a cheat. I do think people like to win and it gets the best of them, in Sam's case it not about money the purse for the gelding is nice but she blows MULTIPLES of that on speculative yearlings EVERY year, she let winning and being at her home track on racing's biggest day get the best of her. I shouldn't feel bad for them but I still do and maybe that's the problem.

[Kasept]

Originally Posted by freddymo

As the most important source for Racing News etc. You are in a VERY tough spot. Very hard to ask Ellis Yo what's with the vet's list after races and the 35% winners with 60 + days rest? How do you skip a G1 after galloping in an allowance? You cant ask him, Ron what was it in the first 48 hours after galloping in an allowance that convinced you and the attending vet that Winstrol was indicated? You just cant, none of these guys would EVER tolerant this scrutiny nor is it your place.

Freddy.. You should listen to the segment again. I did ask him how he approached the campaign and Ellis explained in detail his plan for the whole year including the 2 layoffs with treatments. There's nothing hidden or secretive. And it's clear that he has an approach he's been using and he hasn't run afoul of the rules. And he's certainly going to have to change his approach, especially in light of expanded 6 month exclusion for steroid use.

I don't understand the pretzel-twisting attempt to turn this into something more involved than it is. And there's going to be the positive fallout from it that will likely keep pre-race OCT positives from being able to run.

[gamblin4ever]

If rule of thumb says it takes 20 days for a drug to go thru a horses system, can't the governing boards put a rule in place that you can't give the horse that drug 25 days before race to make sure there is no positive, or a standard set of rules that no drugs given to horses 30 days before race? Just wondering if any standard rule could work or is it wishful thinking.

[Kasept]

Originally Posted by gamblin4ever

If rule of thumb says it takes 20 days for a drug to go thru a horses system, can't the governing boards put a rule in place that you can't give the horse that drug 25 days before race to make sure there is no positive, or a standard set of rules that no drugs given to horses 30 days before race? Just wondering if any standard rule could work or is it wishful thinking.

That's essentially the premise of all allowable medication. Except horses metabolize at varying rates.

RMTC WITHDRAWL GUIDELINES

State Dose and Route Withdrawal

Acepromazine Arkansas IV; 0.05 mg/kg 48 hours
Albuterol Arkansas Intra-nasal; 720 mcg total dose 72 hours
Betamethasone Arkansas IA as betamethasone acetate and betamethasone sodium phosphate; 9 mg total in one articular space 7 days
Butorphanol Arkansas IV; 0.1 mg/kg 48 hours
Clenbuterol Arkansas Orally; 0.8 mcg/kg twice daily (max. 30 days) 14 days
Dantrolene Arkansas Orally; 500 mg total dose 48 hours
Detomidine Arkansas Sublingual (Dormosedan Gel); 40 mcg/kg sublingual 72 hours
Dexamethasone Arkansas IV, oral, and intramuscular; 0.05 mg/kg 72 hours
Diclofenac Arkansas Systemic; 5” ribbon of Surpass every 12 hours to one site 48 hours
DMSO Arkansas Topical; Up to two ounces 48 hours
Firocoxib Arkansas Orally; 0.1 mg/kg for 4 days 14 days
Flunixin Arkansas IV; 1.1 mg/kg 32 hours
Furosemide Arkansas IV; 500 mg total dose 4 hours
Glycopyrrolate Arkansas IV; 1 mg total dose 48 hours
Isoflupredone Arkansas Subcutaneous or IA admin of isoflupredone acetate; 10 mg total dose subcutaneous or 20 mg in 1 space 7 days
Ketoprofen Arkansas IV; 2.2 mg/kg 24 hours
Lidocaine Arkansas Subcutaneous; 200 mg total dose 72 hours
Mepivacaine Arkansas Subcutaneous – distal limb; 0.07 mg/kg 72 hours
Methocarbamol Arkansas IV and Oral; 15 mg/kg IV; 5 g orraly 48 hours
Methylprednisolone Arkansas IA as methylprednisol one acetate; 100 mg total in one articular space 21 days
Omeprazole Arkansas Orally; 3.9 mg/kg 24 hours
Phenylbutazone Arkansas IV; 4.0 mg/kg 24 hours
Prednisolone Arkansas Orally; 1 mg/kg 48 hours
Procaine Penicillin Arkansas Intra-muscular; 17 mg/kg Requires: 1. Mandatory notification of procaine penicillin administration and 2. Mandatory surveillance at the horse owner’s expense for 6 hours before racing
Triamcinolone Acetonide Arkansas IA; 9 mg total in one articular space 7 days
Xylazine Arkansas IV; Up to 1 mg/kg 48 hours

[cmorioles]

Originally Posted by Kasept

That's essentially the premise of all allowable medication. Except horses metabolize at varying rates.

Learned from somebody that knows a lot more than me about this particular steroid that multiple does in a relatively short time span like was done with Masochistic radically alters the withdrawal time. I guess Ellis didn't know that, but he should have.

[Kasept]

Originally Posted by cmorioles

Learned from somebody that knows a lot more than me about this particular steroid that multiple does in a relatively short time span like was done with Masochistic radically alters the withdrawal time. I guess Ellis didn't know that, but he should have.

The compounding pharmacy aspect is a wild card too. It's a humiliating black eye for Ellis and everyone involved. But the post race test part worked and its odd to me that no one seems to care to acknowledge that. And the OCT portion demonstrates that the industry can be out in front of potential problems. That's something viable and productive to build on going forward.

[cmorioles]

Originally Posted by Kasept

The compounding pharmacy aspect is a wild card too. It's a humiliating black eye for Ellis and everyone involved. But the post race test part worked and its odd to me that no one seems to care to acknowledge that. And the OCT portion demonstrates that the industry can be out in front of potential problems. That's something viable and productive to build on going forward.

Well stated, agree.

[KidCruz]

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

Where's the apology to me?

I apologize for crediting you with a friend that is not a friend!

Still surprised that your initial reaction was to defend Ellis. Out of character for you since your usual inclination is to look out for the bettor. I think we all agree the bettor was kept in the dark here. I agree that CHRB deserve much scorn but Ellis deserves some also.

[blackthroatedwind]

Originally Posted by KidCruz

I apologize for having such little respect for myself that I can't even admit what everyone sees, that I am a gutless coward hiding behind the anonymity of the internet to express my jealous frustration over my own failures in life.

If only I could read, then maybe I could figure out what you wrote on another board, which for the above stated reasons, I foolishly dragged to this message board. Once again, I let my own failings in life cloud my already poor personal judgement. Perhaps one day I will learn, and hopefully I can use this as a first step to becoming a better person, while acknowledging I ( clearly ) have a very long way to go.

FTFY.