Derby Trail Forums

Go Back   Derby Trail Forums > Main Forum > The Paddock
Register FAQ Members List Calendar Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #341  
Old 05-16-2012, 10:31 AM
Antitrust32 Antitrust32 is offline
Jerome Park
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Ft Lauderdale
Posts: 9,413
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Powderfinger View Post
. And giving it a shot of lasix is animal cruelty.
really????????????????
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by Riot View Post
Can I start just making stuff up out of thin air, too?
Reply With Quote
  #342  
Old 05-16-2012, 10:56 AM
Riot's Avatar
Riot Riot is offline
Keeneland
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 14,153
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Powderfinger View Post
I am curious why you think this? From what I read here only 5% of the current thoroughbred industry's inventory really need lasix. Maybe another 25% should have it.
Where are you getting the false statistic that "only 5% of horses need lasix?" That's not been said here at all, even by those that are trying to deny lasix is a therapeutic medication. It is factually false. The incidence of EIPH is documented to be much higher, and that has been repeatedly said here.

Oh: and horses are not inanimate "inventory", they are more properly and objectively labeled "live stock", with "stock" for short, but actually they are living creatures with lungs that bleed at high intensity exercise levels.

Quote:
I am still convinced that if the lungs bleed beyond a certain level, the horse is doing something it shouldn't. And for a vet to allow that animal to compete is borderline criminal. And giving it a shot of lasix is animal cruelty.
Please read the basic information page about Exercise-Induced Pulmonary Hemorrhage Kasept posted in the first link and first post of this thread, so you learn the basic facts about EIPH before you join the discussion.

EIPH is a horse problem, not a horse racing problem. It is not confined to Thoroughbred horses racing on the flat or over hurdles. It is not confined to North America. It is not confined to the Thoroughbred breed. It is a long-recognized medical problem, for which we have a therapeutic drug that helps.

Accusing vets of criminality for helping horses that suffer EIPH is ridiculous hyperbole, not to mention insulting. You can "believe" whatever you wish, such as dinosaurs walked the earth with humans and vaccinations cause autism, but that doesn't change the facts surrounding EIPH.

Here are some basic facts about Exercise-Induced Pulmonary Hemorrhage:
Quote:
EIPH in Horses

EIPH has been reported to occur in a variety of race horse breeds including racing Thoroughbreds (both racing on the flat and over jumps) , American Quarter Horses (incidence of 50-75%), Standardbreds (incidence of 40-60%), Arabians, and Appaloosas. EIPH has also been reported in eventers, jumpers, polo ponies, endurance horses, draft horses that pull competitively,[1] and horses taking part in Western speed events such as reining, cutting and barrel racing. EIPH is now considered to be an inevitable consequence of moderate to intense exercise in horses and other athletic animals. The lowest intensities of exercise which have been reported to cause EIPH are intense trotting (40-60% maximal oxygen uptake)[2] and cantering at speeds of 16–19 miles per hour (26–31 km/h).[3]

It occurs less frequently in stallions than mares or geldings,[4] but it is associated with airway inflammation and increasing age.[5]

The affliction occurs when blood enters the air passages of a horse's lung, due to fractured lung capillaries. Blood is sometimes evident discharging from a horse's nostrils (epistaxis), however, epitaxis usually only occurs in 5% of bleeders.[1][6] If a horse does not exhibit epistaxis but is suspected to have EIPH, an endoscopic exam is performed soon after the horse is exercised.

Prevalence of EIPH in Horses

Based on surveys of horses examined endoscopically following racing, around 40 to 70% of horses have been reported to have blood in the trachea following a single post-race examination. One of the more recent and larger studies found an overall prevalence of just under 60%.[7] The time at which the examination is carried out can determine whether or not blood is seen. The usual time for examination is 30–40 minutes following exercise. If examination is carried out too soon after exercise then blood may not have progressed from the dorso-caudal (top and back) of the lung into the trachea. If the examination is carried out too long after exercise then any blood may have moved up the trachea and been swallowed and therefore not be visible at the time of examination. In one study (Birks et al. 2002), when horses were endoscoped on at least three separate occasions following racing, all horses had blood in the trachea on at least one occasion.

Epistaxis (blood coming from one or both nostrils) is much less common. In a survey of over 220,000 horse starts in UK Flat and National Hunt (jump) racing, 185 cases of epistaxis were identified giving a frequency of 0.83/1000 starts. Similar frequencies have been reported for epistaxis in Japan (1.5 per 1000 starts) and South Africa (1.65 per 1000 starts). However a study of racehorses in Korea reported a much higher frequency (8.4 per 1000 starts).[8]

It is believed that nearly all horses experience EIPH when exposed to strenuous exercise,[9] and it has the potential to decrease lung function over time. However, there are no documented cases of bleeding in wild horses when rounded up[10][unreliable source?] with helicopters from mountain tops in pens miles away.
Quote:
Exercise-Induced Pulmonary Hemorrhage (EIPH) or bleeding

This occupational disease is a major lower respiratory problem of athletic horses. Horses with EIPH bleed from the lungs during intensive exercise. Usually the hemorrhage is minor but can at times be profuse. Fatalities are extremely rare. The cause of EIPH is unclear but several factors are evident. There is a definite relationship between small airway disease (bronchitis), alterations in the vasculature of the lung in the dorsal-caudal (upper back) tip of the lung field, and EIPH.

Until about 20 years ago, the condition was termed epistaxis (nosebleed) and the hemorrhage was thought to originate somewhere in the head. The introduction of the fiberoptic endoscope to equine veterinary practice in the early 1970s allowed the safe and effective visualization of the upper respiratory tract of horses for the first time. It showed that the blood actually originated from the lungs. Furthermore, less than one horse in 20 which has EIPH has blood at the nostrils. University studies indicate a significant percentage of racehorses, as high as 85% in one study, experience EIPH to some degree at one time or another. There are no indications to suggest that the incidence of EIPH has increased in recent times as the incidence of epistaxis (bleeding from the nostrils) has remained essentially constant over the last century. Only the diagnostic capabilities have improved.
Again: if people want to eliminate all medication on race day, both illegal, legal and abused, and therapeutic, that's their choice.

But lying about the facts surround EIPH and furosemide simply to meet a political agenda is absurd, and factual lies should and will be called out by those that know better.

The astounding reveal of the factually-bereft position of the anti-lasix crew is that they have not once mentioned banning aminocaproic acid, carbazochrome, tranexamic acid, and conjugated estrogens that are given to try and stop bleeding. If you want to "ban" medications given for bleeding, why have you not mentioned these?
__________________
"Have the clean racing people run any ads explaining that giving a horse a Starbucks and a chocolate poppyseed muffin for breakfast would likely result in a ten year suspension for the trainer?" - Dr. Andrew Roberts

Last edited by Riot : 05-16-2012 at 11:40 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #343  
Old 05-16-2012, 11:38 AM
Riot's Avatar
Riot Riot is offline
Keeneland
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 14,153
Default Vote on lasix ban today in Kentucky

By the way: today the Kentucky Racing Commission will try and ban lasix again. They will probably succeed today. Vote this afternoon.

A very sad day for horse racing. Most will be distracted by the post position draw for the Preakness.
__________________
"Have the clean racing people run any ads explaining that giving a horse a Starbucks and a chocolate poppyseed muffin for breakfast would likely result in a ten year suspension for the trainer?" - Dr. Andrew Roberts

Last edited by Riot : 05-16-2012 at 12:01 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #344  
Old 05-16-2012, 01:48 PM
Riot's Avatar
Riot Riot is offline
Keeneland
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 14,153
Default Vote again this afternoon by KHRC

I'm hearing conflicting stories on if they are going to try and shove a vote through this afternoon, or not. This story from this morning says not, but the noon news here (Louisville based) and Lex Herald Leader says yes. Kasept, do you know? What do your contacts say?
--------

Proposed race-day drug ban resurfaces in Kentucky

LEXINGTON, Ky. (AP) - Kentucky's horse racing regulators were set to reconsider a proposal Wednesday to put the state that proclaims itself the "horse capital of the world'' at the forefront of banning an anti-bleeding drug on race days.

The proposed regulation being presented to the Kentucky Horse Racing Commission would phase out race-day use of the drug furosemide in graded or listed stakes races in the Bluegrass state. It would apply to the Kentucky Derby starting in 2014.

A more sweeping proposed ban - aimed at completely phasing out use of furosemide on race days - failed on a 7-7 roll call vote at a tense commission meeting last month. The commission has since added a new member, Lexington horseman John Phillips.

Both versions would make Kentucky the first state to ban race-day use of furosemide, which is marketed under the brand names Lasix or Salix. The drug is used commonly to treat pulmonary hemorrhaging in racehorses.

The proposed ban remained divisive when it came up for discussion before the Equine Drug Research Council, an advisory group for the Horse Racing Commission. A motion to support the proposed regulation failed on a 3-4 roll call vote. The proposal was on the agenda for the Horse Racing Commission meeting later Wednesday.

The commission was not expected to vote on the new proposal Wednesday. A vote could come at its meeting next month, following an expected public hearing on the issue.

John T. Ward, the commission's executive director, said Lasix has become "the golden shot'' administered when horses race or work out. But he said there's a growing public perception that racehorses are overly medicated.

Ward, a veteran thoroughbred trainer, said the racing industry would adjust to the race-day furosemide prohibition.

"We will develop other protocols that are as good or better for the animal,'' he said. "The only way you can force change is to restrict something. ... We have never looked for the substitute that gives us better coverage than Lasix does.''

Furosemide is the only medication allowed to be given to horses on race day in the United States. Its use is banned in other countries because it enhances performance.

Opponents of the earlier proposal said the race-day ban would saddle Kentucky with a competitive disadvantage that would drive away trainers and horses. Kentucky racetracks already are struggling to keep up with competitors in other states where purse money is bolstered by slot machines and other forms of gambling. Kentucky lawmakers have refused to allow casino-style gambling at the state's racetracks.

Three-time Kentucky Derby winning trainer Bob Baffert told the AP in an interview that the proposed ban would hurt racing and the horses. He said he gives Lasix as a preventative against bleeding.

"Once they bleed, they just keep bleeding and it's hard to really stop,'' he said.

Baffert said the horsemen who have problems with race-day use of Lasix could just stop administering the drug at those times.

But he said a ban on race-day use of the drug would put horses at a disadvantage if they bled.

"You don't know which ones are going to bleed,'' he said.

The new proposal being presented to the horse racing commission would gradually ban the use of furosemide within 24 hours of post time in any graded or stakes races in Kentucky. Those races draw top-notch horses because of the higher purse money offered.

The new version would begin on Jan. 1, 2013, when the ban would apply to 2-year-olds racing in any graded or stakes races in Kentucky. The prohibition would extend to 2- and 3-year-old horses competing in those races in 2014.

The Kentucky Derby, run the first Saturday of May at Churchill Downs in Louisville, is for 3-year-old horses.

Then in 2015, the ban would apply to any horse entered to race in graded or listed stakes races in Kentucky.

The phase-in could reshuffle fields in some horse races in 2014, when the ban would apply to 3-year-olds but not to older horses.

Violations of the race-day drug ban would result in the horse being disqualified and forfeiture of their purse money.

"That is a heavy penalty to pay,'' Ward said. "The owner takes the hit for a lot of money.''

Violating trainers or veterinarians would face license suspensions and fines growing in severity for repeat infractions in a year's time.

Notably missing from the new version was an out-clause that would have the commission review the impact of the race-day ban during the phase-in period. The initial proposal called for a commission review of the ban in 2013.

Read more: http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/201...#ixzz1v41LTTbk
__________________
"Have the clean racing people run any ads explaining that giving a horse a Starbucks and a chocolate poppyseed muffin for breakfast would likely result in a ten year suspension for the trainer?" - Dr. Andrew Roberts
Reply With Quote
  #345  
Old 05-16-2012, 02:01 PM
Riot's Avatar
Riot Riot is offline
Keeneland
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 14,153
Default

Per Matt Hegarty Twitter Feed:

Matt Hegarty ‏@DRFHegarty
Vote to table discussion for a year fails 7-4.

1h Matt Hegarty ‏@DRFHegarty
Conway motion amended for ban on discussion of Lasix phaseout to one year; state language removed at Beck's request due to unenforceability.

1h Matt Hegarty ‏@DRFHegarty
Commissioner Tom Conway moves to ban any more discussion over Lasix phaseout for one year unless 4 or more states phase medication out.

1h Matt Hegarty ‏@DRFHegarty
KHRC will hold "town hall" meeting on Lasix phaseout either June 4, 5, or 6, exec. dir. Ward says.


2h Matt Hegarty ‏@DRFHegarty
KDRC vote is non-binding; KHRC is preparing to meet now, but not vote scheduled on Lasix phase-out.

2h Matt Hegarty‏@DRFHegarty
The KY Equine Drug Council has voted 4-3 against a motion to recommend phase-out of furosemide in stakes, according to officials.

Update 3:09pm That appears to be the end of it, because now it's being tweeted they have changed committees and are reviewing Albarado's suspension.
__________________
"Have the clean racing people run any ads explaining that giving a horse a Starbucks and a chocolate poppyseed muffin for breakfast would likely result in a ten year suspension for the trainer?" - Dr. Andrew Roberts
Reply With Quote
  #346  
Old 05-16-2012, 04:19 PM
Riot's Avatar
Riot Riot is offline
Keeneland
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 14,153
Default Good to see it appears the truth is getting out there

Excerpts from Matt Hegarty DRF column on todays meeting.

Can't wait to go to the "town hall" meeting Already being talked about, the veterinary community is going to turn out in force to support the health and welfare of the horse in the face of this threat.

Quote:
05/16/2012 4:21PM
Kentucky commission to hold ‘town hall’ on Lasix
By Matt Hegarty

LEXINGTON, Ky. – The Kentucky Horse Racing Commission plans to press ahead with a discussion over the possible phase-out of the raceday use of the anti-bleeding medication furosemide in stakes races with a town-hall style meeting in early June.

John Ward, the executive director of the commission, said at a commission meeting on Wednesday that the hearing would take place on June 4, 5, or 6. The hearing will be designed to take input on a proposed rule the commission unveiled on Wednesday that would ban the use of furosemide, commonly known as Lasix, before juvenile stakes races held in ....

“We are very willing to listen to anyone,” Ward said.

The introduction of the proposed rule banning raceday use of furosemide before stakes races followed by one month the rejection of a proposal that would have begun phasing out the raceday use of the drug in all races in 2013. That vote, which was hastily arranged, ended in a 7-7 tie.

Just before the Wednesday meeting, the Kentucky Equine Drug Research Council, an advisory committee to the commission, voted 5-4 to reject a recommendation that the commission approve the phase-out in stakes races, according to officials.

The drug council’s rejection of the motion and the earlier failure of the wider phase-out of furosemide use led several opponents to criticize the commission for continuing to pursue a ban on the drug, which is used to treat bleeding in the lungs and is legal to administer on race day in every racing jurisdiction in North America.

“I don’t understand how this thing keeps coming up,” said Burr Travis, a northern Kentucky lawyer and horse owner who voted against the wider ban last month.

As a result of that criticism, Jack Conway, a horse owner and breeder, offered a motion that would have prohibited the commission from discussing a furosemide ban for one year. It was seconded by Dr. Foster Northrup, a practicing veterinarian, but it failed by a vote of 7-4 after the commission’s chairman, Robert Beck, said that approval of the motion “would send the wrong message.”
__________________
"Have the clean racing people run any ads explaining that giving a horse a Starbucks and a chocolate poppyseed muffin for breakfast would likely result in a ten year suspension for the trainer?" - Dr. Andrew Roberts
Reply With Quote
  #347  
Old 05-16-2012, 07:04 PM
Danzig's Avatar
Danzig Danzig is offline
Dee Tee Stables
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: The Natural State
Posts: 29,931
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Antitrust32 View Post
really????????????????
yeah, i give up. i'm out. lol animal cruelty.
sweetjesus.
__________________
Books serve to show a man that those original thoughts of his aren't very new at all.
Abraham Lincoln
Reply With Quote
  #348  
Old 05-16-2012, 08:16 PM
Cannon Shell's Avatar
Cannon Shell Cannon Shell is offline
Sha Tin
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 20,855
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Powderfinger View Post
I am curious why you think this? From what I read here only 5% of the current thoroughbred industry's inventory really need lasix. Maybe another 25% should have it.

So we get rid of 30% of the stock. Wouldn't the market eventually adjust and owners/trainers be more careful what they add to their stable?
I am still convinced that if the lungs bleed beyond a certain level, the horse is doing something it shouldn't. And for a vet to allow that animal to compete is borderline criminal. And giving it a shot of lasix is animal cruelty.
Reading your posts amounts to people cruelty
Reply With Quote
  #349  
Old 05-16-2012, 09:24 PM
pointman's Avatar
pointman pointman is offline
Saratoga
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 15,693
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Powderfinger View Post
I am curious why you think this? From what I read here only 5% of the current thoroughbred industry's inventory really need lasix. Maybe another 25% should have it.

So we get rid of 30% of the stock. Wouldn't the market eventually adjust and owners/trainers be more careful what they add to their stable?
I am still convinced that if the lungs bleed beyond a certain level, the horse is doing something it shouldn't. And for a vet to allow that animal to compete is borderline criminal. And giving it a shot of lasix is animal cruelty.
If you want to know what cruelty really feels like go read Riot's 12,000 plus posts.
Reply With Quote
  #350  
Old 05-17-2012, 12:45 PM
GPK GPK is offline
5'8".. but all man!
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: 3 miles from Chateuax de la Blaha
Posts: 21,706
Default

http://therail.blogs.nytimes.com/201...ix/?ref=sports
Reply With Quote
  #351  
Old 05-17-2012, 03:51 PM
Cannon Shell's Avatar
Cannon Shell Cannon Shell is offline
Sha Tin
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 20,855
Default

The blogger "lineup" for the Times is something that you would expect from the Burlington Register.
The Headliner is Mr Sunshine Drape.

Then we have Alex Brown who's claim to fame is being an exercise rider and hero to the pretty horsey set.

Third on the list is Jim Squires a retired Newspaper man who lucked into breeding Monarchos but has never done anything else of note in the business except write a book knocking everything and everybody.

Then we have Melissa Hoppert whose main qualification for being a horse racing blogger is "She was present when Sadie's Dream, owned by her aunt's family, won the 1994 Rose DeBartolo Memorial Stakes at Thistledown in Ohio." Uh okay....

Bob Goetz is a longtime fan

Peter Blair covered the Preakness one year

And then there is Gina Rarick who is a writer turned trainer who trains a few horses in France but has never trained a single horse in the US which never seems to damp her enthusiasm for criticizing US trainers or the sport here in general.

Quite a group of experts
Reply With Quote
  #352  
Old 05-17-2012, 04:07 PM
Riot's Avatar
Riot Riot is offline
Keeneland
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 14,153
Default

Thank you Steve Zorn. Thanks for the link. Seems common sense and science are winning
__________________
"Have the clean racing people run any ads explaining that giving a horse a Starbucks and a chocolate poppyseed muffin for breakfast would likely result in a ten year suspension for the trainer?" - Dr. Andrew Roberts
Reply With Quote
  #353  
Old 05-17-2012, 07:36 PM
GenuineRisk's Avatar
GenuineRisk GenuineRisk is offline
Atlantic City Race Course
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 4,986
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cannon Shell View Post
The blogger "lineup" for the Times is something that you would expect from the Burlington Register.
The Headliner is Mr Sunshine Drape.

Then we have Alex Brown who's claim to fame is being an exercise rider and hero to the pretty horsey set.

Third on the list is Jim Squires a retired Newspaper man who lucked into breeding Monarchos but has never done anything else of note in the business except write a book knocking everything and everybody.

Then we have Melissa Hoppert whose main qualification for being a horse racing blogger is "She was present when Sadie's Dream, owned by her aunt's family, won the 1994 Rose DeBartolo Memorial Stakes at Thistledown in Ohio." Uh okay....

Bob Goetz is a longtime fan

Peter Blair covered the Preakness one year

And then there is Gina Rarick who is a writer turned trainer who trains a few horses in France but has never trained a single horse in the US which never seems to damp her enthusiasm for criticizing US trainers or the sport here in general.

Quite a group of experts
None of those people are the author of the article. Did you read it?
__________________
Gentlemen! We're burning daylight! Riders up! -Bill Murray
Reply With Quote
  #354  
Old 05-17-2012, 07:52 PM
Cannon Shell's Avatar
Cannon Shell Cannon Shell is offline
Sha Tin
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 20,855
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by GenuineRisk View Post
None of those people are the author of the article. Did you read it?
Uh yeah? What does that have to do with the "lineup" of featured bloggers listed on the page?
Reply With Quote
  #355  
Old 12-31-2012, 02:13 PM
CommodoreDowns CommodoreDowns is offline
Foal
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 1
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Calzone Lord View Post
Ok, but you did have to remind me that they do in case I somehow forgot or something?

When my father trained horses, one of the horses he moved way up was a speed horse called G. J. From Ioway. He credited all of his improvement to simply changing his bit.
Your father would gave to be one of either JD Shatz or Doug Salvatore then... Remember that horse well..
Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 11:24 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.8
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.