Zito's thoughts on whips

[jcs11204]

Originally Posted by hockey2315

But isn't that an issue of mis or overuse? Not necessarily the whip itself?

who is to judge mis or overuse ? you could argure that it happens every single race

[hockey2315]

Originally Posted by jcs11204

what are some of the bigger problems ?

take-out, tax issues, drugs, track surfaces, the whole "racing to breed" philosophy, horse slaughter. . . i could go on and on

[jcs11204]

Originally Posted by hockey2315

take-out, tax issues, drugs, track surfaces, the whole "racing to breed" philosophy, horse slaughter. . . i could go on and on

were on the same page at least, with the other issues.
but i do think the whips are actually pointless, and i dont think ppl would even notice if they got rid of them

[Bobby Fischer]

An immediate ban of the whip would be great, if only for the reason that it would give handicappers who study the sport an edge. Any change is positive in the short term. Just as synthetics were, so would a whip ban.

The truth is that the sport is mired in a minor league business.
The owners and the US gov't are too nearsighted, unorganized, and conservative to properly broadcast the game through mass media. Barns are half horseman and half chemist. The hoseplayers are so institutionalized in a state of addiction and separatism(separated individuals without any united power), that they accept extremely high fees, low quality information, and often a low quality product.

Ban the whip, or add a legal buzzer to everyone's whip, at least it provides an edge.
If you love the game, seek out the quality if you can find it. In most situations, you just can't take this game very seriously.

[hockey2315]

Comparing whip changes to the whole synthetic surface thing is ridiculous.

[GenuineRisk]

Originally Posted by jcs11204

who is to judge mis or overuse ? you could argure that it happens every single race

Europe seems to have a handle on judging mis- or overuse of the whip.

This is a really interesting thread, but what I keep thinking is, horses aren't machines. It's well and good (and justified) to say a rider needs to learn how to ride his horse properly, without depending on the whip to do everything, but you can give every correct signal with your hands and voice (jockeys, I imagine, can't do much with their seat and leg, due to how they sit the horse), and the horse may choose not to respond. In that case, the whip might do what hands and voice won't. I'm all for less use; I still am not convinced that banning them won't also compromise rider safety. They have to make split-second decisions in a race, and I'd hate to think even one rider would get injured when it might not have been necessary due to not having a cheap, lightweight piece of equipment.

I'm hopeful some of the DTers who are riders will chime in, though, 'cause I don't mind being wrong.

[Pedigree Ann]

Originally Posted by GenuineRisk

Europe seems to have a handle on judging mis- or overuse of the whip.

This is a really interesting thread, but what I keep thinking is, horses aren't machines. It's well and good (and justified) to say a rider needs to learn how to ride his horse properly, without depending on the whip to do everything, but you can give every correct signal with your hands and voice (jockeys, I imagine, can't do much with their seat and leg, due to how they sit the horse), and the horse may choose not to respond. In that case, the whip might do what hands and voice won't. I'm all for less use; I still am not convinced that banning them won't also compromise rider safety. They have to make split-second decisions in a race, and I'd hate to think even one rider would get injured when it might not have been necessary due to not having a cheap, lightweight piece of equipment.

I'm hopeful some of the DTers who are riders will chime in, though, 'cause I don't mind being wrong.

First of all, what jockeys carry is not technically a whip, in that it doesn't have a flexible lash, like Indy's bullwhip. It is a stick with a wide leather 'tag' on the end and much less able to damage the hide of horse than a true whip.

Ever see a cowboy movie, where the riders are using their whole legs to urge their horses on? Dressage riders use their entire legs as well, more subtly, to communicate their instructions. Hunt seat riders use their knees and lower legs. Jockeys have absolutely no similar means of communication. When used properly, a jockey's bat can be used to tell his horse where to go and when to make his move, to encourage him to keep on trying. Some horses learn to recognize the bat as a signal well enough that the jock only needs to wave it where he can see it.

I haven't race-ridden, but I have done some riding. I was working on jumping around a low course and my big grey school horse was not cooperating; in fact, he was being a pig, wouldn't even pick up a canter. My instructor told me to, so I reached back with my arm and gave him one whack as hard as I could (which isn't that much-I have a bad shoulder) on his behind. His head went up, his ears went up, "Oh, you actually mean you want me to canter." Much better cooperation thereafter, no need for further reminders.

[2Hot4TV]

Originally Posted by hockey2315

do you bet?

I bet with both hand and have owned 6 race horses with some sucess.

[2Hot4TV]

Originally Posted by hockey2315

take-out, tax issues, drugs, track surfaces, the whole "racing to breed" philosophy, horse slaughter. . . i could go on and on

Were taking about the whip.

[freddymo]

Originally Posted by the_fat_man

One needn't watch many races before realizing that whips are more the cause rather than the remedy for these things. More horses duck in and out because of excessive whipping than are straightened out by whipping. Poster boy for this would be Sky Dragon. More horses come off the correct lead in the stretch because of excessive whipping than are induced to change to the correct lead by the use of the whip. Take the whip away and herding becomes less frequent and more obvious (to the stewards). Have seen many cases where jocks get so involved with whipping that they miss the point: getting their horse to the wire in as straight a route as possible. Lear's Princess getting beaten up by Coa and losing two Grade 1's as a result would be a nice example of this.

Of course, if you took the whips away then jockeys would actually have to learn how to do basic things: like keeping a straight path and taking a turn correctly.

Good points...I would like jocks to be gven 3 cracks period. 3 shots across the hide is plenty to wake them up and get there attention to try harder.

[paisjpq]

sort-of off topic but we had a standardbred filly who was a total bitch....talented but ornery. she won her first 4 races with ease, was second in her elimination heat in some summer series....anyway, the final rolls around and at the head of the stretch she was sitting second and had plenty of steam left, the driver smacked her once (first time in her life) with the whip she immediately went off-stride and ended up last. After that night she would go off-stride whenever she saw it raised.

When I trained horses off the track I always had better success wearing spurs rather then carrying a stick...they could see the whip and were always waiting to get hit with it, it was hard to get them to focus on anything other than what was in my hand.

banning whips isn't really practical IMO, but limiting use would help a lot.

[Danzig]

as i said elsewhere a day or two ago, no doubt steve cauthen was glad to have one when he was riding the belmont.
obviously, much like anything else in this world, there is a possibility of abuse with a whip. there are rules regarding use-follow the rules set forth. i don't think a complete ban is necessary, as there are instances when one is needed. leave it to the rider to decide whether to carry. after all, he is supposed to be the professional. i'd imagine he'll opt to carry 99 times out of 100. as a jock, you have no seat or legs to use to communicate. all it comes down to is two arms attached to about 115 pounds worth of human.

[GenuineRisk]

And, of course, it varies horse to horse- is it Samba Rooster who absolutely can't be ridden with a whip? There was some three-year-old prep this spring where I remember Jerry Bailey saying if the horse didn't think he was getting to run off with his rider, he wouldn't run at all. And I remember Johnny V saying Gomez's advice to him before last year's Belmont was not to use the whip on Rags and it was neat watching JV trust that and just wave it at her as she was battling Curlin down the stretch. But I just think it's dangerous to take it away in all circumstances- Eight Belles went towards the rail in her races and scraping the rail would be a lot of damage to a jockey's leg at 35 miles an hour. I agree; set up stricter rules to limit usage, but don't take it away.

On the personal anecdote side, I was working with a trail horse trying to get him to yield and walk sideways. No amount of rein or leg did anything. I finally took a stick and touched, literally just touched him, with it and he did the most perfect sideways steps you ever saw. And this horse HATED the whip under any other circumstance. So go figure. I guess, as humans are the ones with the better reasoning ability, it's up to the riders and trainers to be flexible and figure out what makes the individual horse tick, rather than expecting it to be the other way around.

So where do we go to start our movement for stricter regulation of whip usage?

[philcski]

I am a terrible rider, but I never ride with a whip and don't ever need one. Don't know if that translates to race riding, and I would guess each horse's temperment towards it is individual, but doing away with them completely seems excessive.

Some riders deserve suspensions for overuse, however.

[LARHAGE]

I never ride a green horse without a whip, especially if riding on streets, sometimes they go through your leg cues ( and Jockeys can't use any leg) and if they start to go into traffic or an unsafe area the tapping of the whip against their side to move back in is invaluable, theres a far cry from " whipping" a horse and using it as a tool for control.

[the_fat_man]

Yeah, and I typically drive BRAKELESS except when I'm on that tight path that goes around the Grand Canyon or on that tightrope over Niagara Falls. But I only use them at speeds > 100 mph.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by the_fat_man

Yeah, and I typically drive BRAKELESS except when I'm on that tight path that goes around the Grand Canyon or on that tightrope over Niagara Falls. But I only use them at speeds > 100 mph.

You are just a softy. No whips, no gelding, etc.

[Cannon Shell]

Getting rid of whips is just over the top. They arent just used to beat on horses. A lot of times a tap on the shoulder is a que for a horse to get moving or to change leads if it is late in doing so. For every horse that wont run because of the whip there are plenty that respond to it. There are rules on the books that give the stewards authority to punish abusive whip use. If they would enforce them a little stricter you would eliminate the vast majority of the problems.

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

You are just a softy. No whips, no gelding, etc.

The Bachelor....

[2Hot4TV]

I wish I had a whip when I got GAS today at $4.41 for regular unleaded.