Derby Trail Forums

Go Back   Derby Trail Forums > Main Forum > The Paddock
Register FAQ Members List Calendar Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #21  
Old 05-31-2006, 12:17 PM
Seattleallstar's Avatar
Seattleallstar Seattleallstar is offline
The Curragh
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 2,866
Default

been watching the belmony replay show, garret gomez has been absolutely horrible, Pletcher was better off making Luzzi or Decarlo the stable jock
Reply With Quote
  #22  
Old 05-31-2006, 12:25 PM
oracle80
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Seattleallstar
been watching the belmony replay show, garret gomez has been absolutely horrible, Pletcher was better off making Luzzi or Decarlo the stable jock
Decarlo handles the Monmouth string and Bejarano has the Churchill string. Luzzi is quite competent and a good winter jockey but I think he was looking to find a replacement of the highest quality that he could. Prado would never take it, despite what some morons would have you believe. I've read a few of these geniuses who think Gomez was "chosen" over him. No way Frieze/Prado would have taken it. They get all the best horses that Pletcher doesnt train. They knew Johnny would be back so why the hell would he burn bridges with all his main clients for a few months of mounts. Gomez was the most likely replacement and had ridden well, especially in stakes, the last year or so.
Problem appears to be what I predicted, the style of riding in NY. In Ny its long been a tradition(started by Angel Cordero and Jorge Velasquez) that you don't just ride your own horse, you ride the others as well. By this I mean that you will often see Prado and Velazquez lock guys on main competitors in a trap or jackpot and keep them locked in. If you want to get a hole in NY you have to get lucky and have the horse in front of you drift out or in, cause those guys arent letting you out, no way no how. Garrett likes to "make things happen" with his style of riding. Likes to save ground and try to split horses. When it works(like on Artie in the BC) he looks like a genius, when it doesn't work(like in the BC sprint when Edgar swung the door shut as he heard him coming and said "where do you think you are going?") he doesnt look so hot.
Its a completely different ballgame here.
Reply With Quote
  #23  
Old 05-31-2006, 12:30 PM
Seattleallstar's Avatar
Seattleallstar Seattleallstar is offline
The Curragh
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 2,866
Default

only jockey out west that could handle the job would be PVAL!
Reply With Quote
  #24  
Old 05-31-2006, 12:31 PM
SentToStud's Avatar
SentToStud SentToStud is offline
Arlington Park
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 4,065
Default

[QUOTE .... a trap or jackpot and keep them locked in.... Its a completely different ballgame here.[/quote]

ok, trap I understand. locked in, I follow, What the heck is a "jackpot?" got me there...
Reply With Quote
  #25  
Old 05-31-2006, 12:35 PM
oracle80
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by SentToStud
ok, trap I understand. locked in, I follow, What the heck is a "jackpot?" got me there...
Oh come on Stud, and old warrior like you never heard the term jackpot? YOu will hear jocks use the term a lot. Its when you are really screwed, like two horses ahead of you and a few outside, basically you are all dressed up with no place to go.
One example of the NY style of riding was what Edgar did to Pval on Derby Day in the Woodford Reserve. Edgar was on Good Reward and absolutely kept Pval hemmed in the whole way, refused to let him out and believe me it was on purpose. The blimp shot showed it pretty good. Pval knew he was in a jam 1/2 mile into the race and if you watch the blimp shot he is leaning to his right trying to get out and trying to get Prado to give him a hole. Prado wouldnt budge, he knew what he was doing. Even turning for home, Prado had him locked up. By the time he finally shook clear, it was too late, game over. Can't wait to bet Cacique back in the Manhattan.
Reply With Quote
  #26  
Old 05-31-2006, 12:38 PM
oracle80
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Seattleallstar
only jockey out west that could handle the job would be PVAL!
Well training for the best in business has its hassles. And I'm sure that a few of his owners may have had issues with Pvals past, that wasnt gonna happen. Besides with Pval back in Frankels good graces out there, and with the new agent really booking him on top stuff, hes the guy who won in the whole situation. he and Gomez were dominating out there and with Gomez gone he really gets the lions share of the best mounts to himself now.
Reply With Quote
  #27  
Old 05-31-2006, 12:42 PM
Skip away Skip away is offline
Morris Park
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 124
Default

Maybe Edgar ought to focus more on winning the race with his mounts like Good reward as opposed to contributing to someone else's downfall (P Val and Cacique). If I recall Good Reward was up the track in this race. Was it a big consolation for Edgar knowing he helped beat the race favorite or is he bed buddies with Garret Gomez and set the whole thing up so his sweetiepie would win with English Channel?
Reply With Quote
  #28  
Old 05-31-2006, 12:47 PM
oracle80
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Skip away
Maybe Edgar ought to focus more on winning the race with his mounts like Good reward as opposed to contributing to someone else's downfall (P Val and Cacique). If I recall Good Reward was up the track in this race. Was it a big consolation for Edgar knowing he helped beat the race favorite or is he bed buddies with Garret Gomez and set the whole thing up so his sweetiepie would win with English Channel?
You mean like he focused in the Derby? Or on the other mounts that have made him so much cash in his career?
Look he has no way of knowing if his horse is gonna fire or not in the lane. Reward is a quirky horse who actually won the Manhattan last year. What he did was lock in one of his main competitors so that if he had run he would get the jump on him.
Oh, and I don't think he has any buddies when he is out there in a race, hes a warrior in the saddle. He and Johhny even get into it with each other at times. Thats how it should be.
As far as Gomez goes, ask him if he though Edgar was his buddy on Cup day when he got the door smacked right in his face when he tried to come between Edgar and another horse. Every jock in Ny knows, you don't try to split Edgar and someone else, that door is gonna close in your face if you try it.
Reply With Quote
  #29  
Old 05-31-2006, 12:57 PM
PSH's Avatar
PSH PSH is offline
Hollywood Park
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Mill Valley, CA
Posts: 914
Default Gomez

Oracle:

If you have such a bias against Gomez or for that matter any other jockey or trainer why play him? If you believe he is on the best horse and can't stand the guy just pass the race. If he is on the favorite who you don't like that should give you an even bigger opportunity...

I am sure all of us have gone through periods when a particular jockey was costing us $$$ and if that is the case one should just not play the guy...
Gomez has certainly won some big races in the last year and not just at the So Cal circuit.... I am not a big fan of his just because of his past and trouble that he has gotten in.

Yes, Johnny V is the best there is... But with White Mercedes Pletcher his horses average what 3-2....
Reply With Quote
  #30  
Old 05-31-2006, 12:59 PM
PSH's Avatar
PSH PSH is offline
Hollywood Park
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Mill Valley, CA
Posts: 914
Default Sorry Oracle 80

Sorry, Meant Seattle All Star
Reply With Quote
  #31  
Old 05-31-2006, 01:00 PM
Skip away Skip away is offline
Morris Park
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 124
Thumbs down

White Mercedes, LOL! Thats very funny.
Reply With Quote
  #32  
Old 05-31-2006, 01:02 PM
Skip away Skip away is offline
Morris Park
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 124
Default

Any jockey could have ridden Barbaro in the Derby. Some would have won by more, some less depending on the style. The only jockey that could have botched up that ride is Mike Luzzi.
Reply With Quote
  #33  
Old 05-31-2006, 01:05 PM
oracle80
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by PSH
Sorry, Meant Seattle All Star
Thats ok, look, Gomez has been riding the same White Mercedes horses(I know what you mean, but you are sadly uninformed if you think Todds success is dude to Doc Allday, he plays a part, hes the best in the business, but Todd is a genius and in watching his horses train you can see some of the things he does that makes him the best, but i digress) .
Stat- In over three weeks of riding in NY he has won with TWO mounts for Pletcher at Belmont. One Safari Queen was 6-5(and that wasnt a great ride) and Honey Ryder at 3-2. Now thats a fact Jack. only TWO winners for Todd at the meet. The other 7 have been for other trainers.
The level at which he is spoken of by some leads to to evaluate him as if he were the very best or one of the best. I can give you three horses he blew this weekend with bad rides. Two of em I bet, and one I didn't and cashed on because he blew the ride. Hes not Johnny, not even close. His mistakes are always mental. Noone is gonna tell you hes not amazingly strong and agile, ist pretty obvious that he is. But at the very highest level of the game you have to sharpen your mental skills as well. He needs plenty of work in this area.
Reply With Quote
  #34  
Old 05-31-2006, 01:11 PM
oracle80
 
Posts: n/a
Default By the way PSH

By the way, my clocker tells me if he doesnt win at least three races tomorrow that he should be run outta town on a rail.
Both of his two year olds should win. The turf horse in the first as well.
Reply With Quote
  #35  
Old 05-31-2006, 01:14 PM
Skip away Skip away is offline
Morris Park
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 124
Default

Thank you Oracle.

3/1, 3/5 and 2/1 on the morning line though. I suspect the only horse who has a chance of going off better than even money is the horse in the first race because of the large field. The 2 year olds will be 1/5 and 3/5 respectively. Why even bother carding races like this, its whats ruining the sport and turning people over to auto racing
Reply With Quote
  #36  
Old 05-31-2006, 01:15 PM
zippyneedsawin's Avatar
zippyneedsawin zippyneedsawin is offline
Oaklawn
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 2,064
Default

Exactly!! I was so mad a Pval at the 1/2 mile pole in that race 'cause I knew he had Cacique trapped at the rail.
Maybe I'm way off here(especially considering this has been a Gomez bashing thread!), but I'm starting to think Pval doesn't ride as well in large fields as he does in the typical small fields you see on the west coast. Now, I'm make a generalization based on Pval's rides on Cacique in the Kilroe mile and Woodford Reserve, but in both cases, I thought Pval didn't handle the large fields too well. He went way wide in the Kilroe and got trapped in the Woodford... I can't wait for Cacique to run in the Manhattan too, but I'm hoping someone else has the mount if it's a large field again.



One example of the NY style of riding was what Edgar did to Pval on Derby Day in the Woodford Reserve. Edgar was on Good Reward and absolutely kept Pval hemmed in the whole way, refused to let him out and believe me it was on purpose. The blimp shot showed it pretty good. Pval knew he was in a jam 1/2 mile into the race and if you watch the blimp shot he is leaning to his right trying to get out and trying to get Prado to give him a hole. Prado wouldnt budge, he knew what he was doing. Even turning for home, Prado had him locked up. By the time he finally shook clear, it was too late, game over. Can't wait to bet Cacique back in the Manhattan.[/quote]
Reply With Quote
  #37  
Old 05-31-2006, 01:15 PM
PSH's Avatar
PSH PSH is offline
Hollywood Park
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Mill Valley, CA
Posts: 914
Default Oracle 80

Oracle 80:

Can i infer from previous posts on this thread that you own Western Expression and possibly other horses?

If so, best of luck on Friday with Western .....

PSH
Reply With Quote
  #38  
Old 05-31-2006, 01:18 PM
oracle80
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Skip away
Thank you Oracle.

3/1, 3/5 and 2/1 on the morning line though. I suspect the only horse who has a chance of going off better than even money is the horse in the first race because of the large field. The 2 year olds will be 1/5 and 3/5 respectively. Why even bother carding races like this, its whats ruining the sport and turning people over to auto racing
Skip Away The one in the third is the one that will roll big time. The Monmouth shipper. My clocker says in the 2nd that Hough can fly also. Says its a two horse race.
MY clocker is also my friend and he trained for over 30 years. Hes the most repected guy in NY by the trainers. Hes a private clocker and when the trainers wanna know what their horse REALLY worked in as well as how he looked doing it, Joe's the guy they ask. Hes on the OTB channel show in August up here as well. One of my best friends and mentors, taught me a lot of the inside things and about training and how to really understand how training works. Hes hooked up with clockers at other tracks, they trade info with one another.
When its a baby race, hes my source on the firsters.
When its a two year old race or a race with fir
Reply With Quote
  #39  
Old 05-31-2006, 01:18 PM
hoovesupsideyourhead's Avatar
hoovesupsideyourhead hoovesupsideyourhead is offline
"The Kentucky Killing Machine"
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: florida
Posts: 16,277
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by oracle80
Oh come on Stud, and old warrior like you never heard the term jackpot? YOu will hear jocks use the term a lot. Its when you are really screwed, like two horses ahead of you and a few outside, basically you are all dressed up with no place to go.
One example of the NY style of riding was what Edgar did to Pval on Derby Day in the Woodford Reserve. Edgar was on Good Reward and absolutely kept Pval hemmed in the whole way, refused to let him out and believe me it was on purpose. The blimp shot showed it pretty good. Pval knew he was in a jam 1/2 mile into the race and if you watch the blimp shot he is leaning to his right trying to get out and trying to get Prado to give him a hole. Prado wouldnt budge, he knew what he was doing. Even turning for home, Prado had him locked up. By the time he finally shook clear, it was too late, game over. Can't wait to bet Cacique back in the Manhattan.
hell yes im soooo on this horse he was one of my singles...would have gave me a nice payday....
Reply With Quote
  #40  
Old 05-31-2006, 01:20 PM
Cajungator26's Avatar
Cajungator26 Cajungator26 is offline
Keeneland
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Hossy's Mom's basement.
Posts: 10,217
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Skip away
Thank you Oracle.

3/1, 3/5 and 2/1 on the morning line though. I suspect the only horse who has a chance of going off better than even money is the horse in the first race because of the large field. The 2 year olds will be 1/5 and 3/5 respectively. Why even bother carding races like this, its whats ruining the sport and turning people over to auto racing
I like horse racing and auto racing.

Anything with speed...
Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 06:57 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.8
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.