Secretariat Vs. Spectacular Bid

[randallscott35]

Originally Posted by Gander

Oracle- There wont be any more great horses if you go by your standards. Not with the way the game is structured and the emphasis on making as much money the few times they want to race a horse and the eagerness to get them in the shed to breed. There will be an increase in the kinds of days like this past Saturday (short fields, heavy favorites). People wonder why the fan base is drying up. Great horses? Dont hold your breath. Its about guys in fancy suits trying to make a quick buck.

Reasons why Lava Man, Tin Man and Funny Cide make my heart go pitter patter. Sorry, just cant get stoked for English Channel or Fleet Indian.

Not necessarily true Tim. Even in the 70's, the fields were small against all the big horses because of how good they were. But some of those horses were still better than a Wanderin Boy and the Dr. Pleasure's of the world....I really hope for the Bernie fans that he wins the BCC. I'm not rooting against him, but its put up or shut up.

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

All this talk of Secretariat and Spectacular Bid makes you realize that "the best" aint really very good anymore.

someone...finley maybe?...wrote after GZ retired that 'great isn't so great anymore'. he was right. we're in the 'modern' era now. and it stinks. don't have many sportsman or women anymore--it's all business. and business is booming, but stars are scarce.

Originally Posted by randallscott35

Apparently you missed the two times in the thread already where I conceded my grading error on the 2 yr olds. An oversight for someone who wasn't born till Bid was a 3 yr old....Am I still silly, not an ounce worth of praise. All you wanted was a justification. What a phony you are.

Your correction of your error occurred while I was composing my post. I didn't see it until after my post was up.

I'll go back and edit my post if that will make you less disagreeable.

Meanwhile ... you haven't addressed any of the points I made.

[randallscott35]

Originally Posted by Bold Brooklynite

Your correction of your error occurred while I was composing my post. I didn't see it until after my post was up.

I'll go back and edit my post if that will make you less disagreeable.

Meanwhile ... you haven't addressed any of the points I made.

What points? You simply put more emphasis on 3 yr old season than the totality of a career. Bid did more and I think top to bottom was a better horse. I'm not trying to convince you--for the 100th time. You asked for a justification of it. You got it.

[Gander]

I hope he doesnt win the Classic because theres a 95% chance I'll be losing money going into the Classic and I wont get out betting Bernardini.

Originally Posted by oracle80

Both would have tossed around Bern like a rag doll, hows that?

My only historical evlauation of Bernardini is ...

... IF he wins the BC Classic in compelling fashion ... easily by open lengths ...

... THEN ... his 3YO campaign would rank with that of any 3YO ... other than Secretariat, Citation, or Man O' War.

Do you dispute that?

[randallscott35]

Originally Posted by Gander

I hope he doesnt win the Classic because theres a 95% chance I'll be losing money going into the Classic and I wont get out betting Bernardini.

Lol, I'll have some plays for you. Mid 4 figures or better, on 4 of the last 5 Breeders Cups. Jinxing myself but I don't care. Sorry I meant 4 figures!! LOL, I'd retire if it was 5.

[randallscott35]

Originally Posted by Bold Brooklynite

My only historical evlauation of Bernardini is ...

... IF he wins the BC Classic in compelling fashion ... easily by open lengths ...

... THEN ... his 3YO campaign would rank with that of any 3YO ... other than Secretariat, Citation, or Man O' War.

Do you dispute that?

What? You can't be serious.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by Bold Brooklynite

It was 1:57 4/5.

Thanks for clearing that up for me

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by Bold Brooklynite

My only historical evlauation of Bernardini is ...

... IF he wins the BC Classic in compelling fashion ... easily by open lengths ...

... THEN ... his 3YO campaign would rank with that of any 3YO ... other than Secretariat, Citation, or Man O' War.

Do you dispute that?

you could compare him to affirmed?? he only had to keep beating alydar. or what about the three year olds in one glorious year--bold ruler, round table, gallant man, and iron liege. a derby for the ages there, how many year end titles went to those few horses?? what about war admiral? or count fleet? you're asking a lot of bernardini....better than all those who came before, except those three??? where's the bid? what about all those tc winners? surely they would all go ahead. or swaps and nashua..tough nuts to crack, when many could and would argue that bernardini wasn't the best of this years crop!

Originally Posted by randallscott35

What points? You simply put more emphasis on 3 yr old season than the totality of a career. Bid did more and I think top to bottom was a better horse. I'm not trying to convince you--for the 100th time. You asked for a justification of it. You got it.

The question isn't who "did more" ... it's who was "better." In your signature line ... you say Spectacular Bid was "better" ... and you can't substantiate that.

Spectacular Bid ran for three full years and started 30 times ... and had his best year as a 4YO ... as many great race horses have. 4YOS are usually much more mature and accomplished than 3YOS ... professionals compared to college boys. 5YOS and 6YOS are even better ... but great entire male horses never get to run at those ages.

Secretariat raced only two years and started 21 times. But his failure to race as a 4YO wasn't his ... he was completely sound when he retired.

The only legitimate comparison which can be made is as 2YOS and 3YOS ... and Secretariat was clearly "better." Why can't you just be satisfied with claiming ... possibly correctly ... that Spectacular Bid was the best 4YO ever?

[randallscott35]

Originally Posted by Bold Brooklynite

The question isn't who "did more" ... it's who was "better." In your signature line ... you say Spectacular Bid was "better" ... and you can't substantiate that.

Spectacular Bid ran for three full years and started 30 times ... and had his best year as a 4YO ... as many great race horses have. 4YOS are usually much more mature and accomplished than 3YOS ... professionals compared to college boys. 5YOS and 6YOS are even better ... but great entire male horses never get to run at those ages.

Secretariat raced only two years and started 21 times. But his failure to race as a 4YO wasn't his ... he was completely sound when he retired.

The only legitimate comparison which can be made is as 2YOS and 3YOS ... and Secretariat was clearly "better." Why can't you just be satisfied with claiming ... possibly correctly ... that Spectacular Bid was the best 4YO ever?

B/c I believe if they raced at 4 (Sec completely sound, yes) that Bid would've beat him 3 out of 5 times or better. Gut feeling, but in the other thread you acted like I was completely out of line. At least now you seem to have it together a bit.

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by Bold Brooklynite

The question isn't who "did more" ... it's who was "better." In your signature line ... you say Spectacular Bid was "better" ... and you can't substantiate that.

Spectacular Bid ran for three full years and started 30 times ... and had his best year as a 4YO ... as many great race horses have. 4YOS are usually much more mature and accomplished than 3YOS ... professionals compared to college boys. 5YOS and 6YOS are even better ... but great entire male horses never get to run at those ages.

Secretariat raced only two years and started 21 times. But his failure to race as a 4YO wasn't his ... he was completely sound when he retired.

The only legitimate comparison which can be made is as 2YOS and 3YOS ... and Secretariat was clearly "better." Why can't you just be satisfied with claiming ... possibly correctly ... that Spectacular Bid was the best 4YO ever?

never know...secretariat may have pulled a flower alley at four.

[randallscott35]

Originally Posted by Danzig188

never know...secretariat may have pulled a flower alley at four.

LOL, yep. That's why they run.

[The Bid]

Bernardini isnt in the same breath as Spectacular Bid, yet. I would put him on par with a horse like Ghostzapper, as of right now. After he wins the BCC against older horses, after he gallops home under a strangle hold, then and only then will anyone realize what a freak he is.

[Danzig]

i think everyone has him on a 'potential freak' list. just some aren't quite so ready to award the prize yet.

just had this thought after i hit the 'send' button....a lot of people, myself included, thought lost in the fog would have his coming of age party around this time last year. he, or flower alley, was the choice of many for the bc laurels... we all know how that turned out. fog had a tremendous year. one that dreams are made of. we all know what can happen, and all to often does.
i'd love to see a really, really good horse show his stuff. wouldn't break my heart one bit to see bernie tear up the churchill strip.

[randallscott35]

Originally Posted by Danzig188

i think everyone has him on a 'potential freak' list. just some aren't quite so ready to award the prize yet.

Discreet Cat is the freak. Can't wait for the Cigar.

[Danzig]

see, that's the thing..unlike bernardini, when discreet cat faced lesser opposition, that joker took on the clock and won....fastest 6 f for the entire saratoga meet. and that was his first start back. unreal stuff there.
bernie has been named the best this year, one of the best ever--and he may not even be the best in his OWN BARN.

[randallscott35]

Originally Posted by Danzig188

see, that's the thing..unlike bernardini, when discreet cat faced lesser opposition, that joker took on the clock and won....fastest 6 f for the entire saratoga meet. and that was his first start back. unreal stuff there.
bernie has been named the best this year, one of the best ever--and he may not even be the best in his OWN BARN.

Fastest 7 furlongs, not 6 I believe.

Originally Posted by Danzig188

you could compare him to affirmed?? he only had to keep beating alydar. or what about the three year olds in one glorious year--bold ruler, round table, gallant man, and iron liege. a derby for the ages there, how many year end titles went to those few horses?? what about war admiral? or count fleet? you're asking a lot of bernardini....better than all those who came before, except those three??? where's the bid? what about all those tc winners? surely they would all go ahead. or swaps and nashua..tough nuts to crack, when many could and would argue that bernardini wasn't the best of this years crop!

Let's take them one-by-one ...

Affirmed tailed off at the end of his 3YO season ... he lost his last two races ... to be sure to a great 4YO and with a slipped saddle ... but losses nonetheless.

The 1954 colt crop was the greatest ever ... and I started following thoroughbred racing in 1957 because of them ... but all of those great horses had significant limitations as 3YOS ... Bold Ruler wouldn't rate and could be beaten by throwing a rabbit at him ... Gallant Man needed to close off a fast pace and barely managed to beat Bureaucracy in the Travers and Dedicate in the Nassau County when the pace was slow. Both Bold Ruler and Gallant Man were defeated at scale weight by the older Dedicate in the Woodward. And Round Table didn't come close to winning his two most important races as a 3YO ... the Kentucky Derby and the Trenton Handicap.

War Admiral was sensational as a 3YO ... but he didn't set track records or win by the open lengths that Bernardini has.

Count Fleet was retired after the Belmont Stakes and never had to face a really good horse. He beat up regularly on Blue Swords ... and there was virtually nothing behind that one. This was during the depths of WWII ... when it looked like Germany and Japan were invincible ... and most everyone ... including owners, trainers, and jockeys ... were putting their time into the war effort ... not horse racing.

Look at the actual records ... and you'll agree that IF Bernardini puts in another exceptional race in the BC Classic ... his 3YO record will be as good as any but the very, very best.