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#21
10-09-2006, 07:25 PM
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Just read the pages and pages of glorification that a horse who beats Wanderin Boy and Andromeda's hero gets. Its a sick joke. yeah he can run, hes really good, no doubt. But great? Hes beaten injured horses with easy trips in small fields in not brilliant times. I'm sorry but mentioning him as a great really defames horses like Bid, Slew, Secretariat, Affirmed, etc. This is a travesty. 
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#22
10-09-2006, 07:25 PM
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#23
10-09-2006, 07:27 PM
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#24
10-09-2006, 07:28 PM
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#25
10-09-2006, 07:29 PM
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#26
10-09-2006, 07:31 PM
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The "official" grading of stakes races began in 1973 ... however ... in 1972 Secretariat won the five most prestigious races for 2YOS ... the Hopeful, Futurity, Champagne, Laurel Futurity, and Garden Stete ... all of which were designated as G1 races the following year.
So ... for you to say that Secretariat didn't win a G1 race as a 2YO is laughable. Either you're trying to con the chumps ... which won't get you very far on this board ... or you're a chump yourself. Edit: Randall already has corrected this earlier error. As 2YOS ... Secretariat was better than Spectacular Bid ... as the panel of experts who assigned the Experimental Handicap weights also concluded ... by assigning Secretariat 129 pounds for his performances ... three pounds above standard ... and Spectacular Bid 126 pounds for his ... equal to standard. As 3YOS ... there's no comparison. Secretariat shattered all three track records in winning the Triple Crown ... two of which have not been approached after 33 years. He later set a world record and another track record ... all in G1 races at major tracks. Spectacular Bid failed to win the Triple Crown ... never approached Secretariat's speed records in those races ... and set only two very minor track records ... one at 8.5f at Delaware Park and one at 10f at the brand new Meadowlands track ... only the second time that distance had ever been run at that track. As a 4YO ... Spectacular Bid had one of the greatest years any American race horse has ever had ... stamping himself as a true giant. Secretariat was retired while in perfect health ... completely sound ... and raring to run as a 4YO ... only to be prevented from doing so by the evils of socialism. Spectacular Bid was a great race horse ... but through their 2YO and 3YO campaigns ... the only basis we have for comparison ... Secretariat was better ... much better. Last edited by Bold Brooklynite : 10-09-2006 at 07:52 PM.
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#27
10-09-2006, 07:34 PM
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Withers- 5 horse field in which 2nd and 3rd place Doc Cheney and Luxembourg have been soundly beaten in allowances since then, not one win between them. Gee swell. Preakness- Barbaro breaks down, Brother Derek bangs his head in the gate and runs while bleeding and in pain and is rank. Sweet Saint runs like drunken tired sailor in the lane exhausted from a hard campaign and still hasn't run back yet. Third place horse is the "mighty hemingway's key. Gee swell!!! Jim Dandy- Makes a loose crawling lead in the slop and once again defeats the mighty Key. Awesome dude. Travers- Bluegrass fractures a leg, later said by jock he knew something wasn't right with him early on. Sets slow pace and beats 2nd place horse with fracture. gee swell. JCGC- Beats a confirmed dime stopper in Wanderin, and a failed allowance horse in Andromeda. Another pedestrian pace, a VERY lackluster 2:01 on a fast track that yields an 8 flat 6F earlier on. One of the slowest runnings. yawn. Please show me the greatness. VERY GOOD yes, great no.
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#28
10-09-2006, 07:37 PM
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I think it's Bid and I don't think it's close. I totally agree with u Randall that the Belmont has skewed everyone's perception of Secretariat. No doubt, it was a great race but was it as great as everyone thinks? The fact that he won by 31-lengths has tricked a lot of people. Assuming that Secretariat went 2:24.00, that would mean that the second-place finisher went in just about 2:29. What would have happened if there had been a horse in there capable of running a 2:26 as u asked or even a 2:27? what would have happened is that Sec still would have had a devastating victory but the public perception wouldn't be the same if it was a 10-15 length win instead of 31. It wouldn't have taken away at all from Sec's domination of the race but just the perception would be changed. Nobody talks about Risen Star's nearly 15-length win with reverance. Or Bet Twice's.
Now I want to discuss just how legit that 2:24 was. Was it an indication of how great he was or was it a fluke performance? I don't know what the second fastest time is for 12f but what I did was look at the history of the Belmont Stakes, the JCGC, and some of the other races that used to be 12f at Belmont and the next best time I've found is 2:25 4/5. Ironically, that was set by Prove Out....in the race that he beat Secretariat. Secretariat was beaten 4 1/2 lengths that day, meaning he ran about 2:26 2/5. Many people have made excuses for Secretariat that day but what I find interesting is that in that race, he finished his final quarter FASTER than he did in the Belmont. He just ran into a horse that wasn't stopping like the Belmont horses were. And Prove Out GAVE Secretariat seven pounds that day too. The only other time Sec ran 12f was on the grass. I don't know what the accepted translation is but I do know that it's generally agreed by everyone that grass times are faster than dirt times. Secretariat ran 2:24 4/5 that day. My guess is that's probably equal to about 2:26 on the dirt. It's my contention that if Secretariat ran 12f on the dirt 20 times, he's never going to approach 2:24 again but would more than likely be in the 2:26 area. My guess is that the Belmont was an aberration on a super fast track. After that, when u compare the raw times each of the two horses ran at the same distances, Bid is faster at just about every one of them. And it wasn't just as a 4yo either. Remember his 1:20 4/5 as a 2yo? And everyone talks about Sec's 1:45 2/5 for 9f but that was one-turn. I'd take Bid's 1:46 1/5 over that around two-turns. And how can anyone forget the 1:57 4/5? For my money, that race is 10x more impressive than Sec's Belmont. There are many more races run at 10f than at 12f in this country so there are many more chances for that record to be broken. But nobody has. I'd take Bid over Secretariat at any distance on any track. Accept for 12f. That was obviously beyond Bid's best but at everything else, I think he's at least a few lengths better than Sec.
__________________
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#29
10-09-2006, 07:38 PM
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#30
10-09-2006, 07:39 PM
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In June of his 3YO year ... Secretariat completed 10f in 1:59 flat ... with still another quarter mile to run. In September he ran 9f in 1:45.2 ... and was clocked ... by official track clockers ... pulling up 10f in 1:58 flat ... so ... ... exactly how did you calculate those "20 lengths"? You're not one of those naïve folks who's comparing a great 4YO to a great 3YO are you? Can you cite anything Spectacular Bid did as a 3YO ... which can compare to what Secreatriat did as a 3YO?
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#31
10-09-2006, 07:40 PM
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#32
10-09-2006, 07:40 PM
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#33
10-09-2006, 07:42 PM
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Have you ever heard of the horse who won a G1 Classic by 31 lengths? Hint: His name wasn't Spectacular Bid.
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#34
10-09-2006, 07:43 PM
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Dahoss,
He needs to come back as a 4 yr old. It's really really important. He's great. But to call him an alltime great he'll need to run next year and win the BCC this year.
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#35
10-09-2006, 07:44 PM
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#36
10-09-2006, 07:44 PM
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#37
10-09-2006, 07:45 PM
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In arguing these two GREATS, has it occurred to anyone that labeling Bern in the same category is absolute insanity?
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#38
10-09-2006, 07:47 PM
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#39
10-09-2006, 07:47 PM
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#40
10-09-2006, 07:48 PM
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Oracle- There wont be any more great horses if you go by your standards. Not with the way the game is structured and the emphasis on making as much money the few times they want to race a horse and the eagerness to get them in the shed to breed. There will be an increase in the kinds of days like this past Saturday (short fields, heavy favorites). People wonder why the fan base is drying up. Great horses? Dont hold your breath. Its about guys in fancy suits trying to make a quick buck.
Reasons why Lava Man, Tin Man and Funny Cide make my heart go pitter patter. Sorry, just cant get stoked for English Channel or Fleet Indian.
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