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  #1  
Old 10-09-2006, 07:02 PM
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randallscott35 randallscott35 is offline
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Default Secretariat Vs. Spectacular Bid

I think what is funny about this topic is the idea that to even have the debate is blasphemy. The Secretariat group act as if it isn't even a question, that to bring him up against any horse would be a crime. To me, that is closed minded. I'm always happy to listen to people's opinions on horses of the past and hardly ever criticize them as long as they can show some justification. I also am not the type to heap praise on horses, in fact I am very reserved with regards to this unless I see something truly special. I saw that with Mineshaft which was well known on the ESPN board and I would say very well argued by me. I realize 99% of people would disagree with me about Mineshaft but did I make the case clearly and back it up, without a doubt. But what people have wrong here is the idea that I try to convince people about these things. I simply don't....But at the same time I've never given my reasons for the Spectacular Bid call so I might as well now.

Ok. So if people can simply be open-minded for a few paragraphs, here goes:
First let me recognize that Sec. is one of a handful of the greatest horses of all-time. I don't deny that and never have. But I think what has happened to Sec. in a lot of respects is that the Belmont has completely altered the debate about him from then on. If you put that much stock in a single race(and I know he had many other brilliant performances), then you can argue as I have in the past that Riboletta might well have been better than Azeri. For sure her best races were far faster than any Azeri race, but that is unfair to Azeri who danced most of the dances and was extremely game in every one.

Remarkably their careers are similar in a lot of respects. Their first race was the best price you'd see on either of them for the rest of their careers. 3-1 on Sec, and 6-1 on the Bid. After that, its chalk city till the end.

At 2----Edge Spectacular Bid
Secretariat didn't race in a single, not one, graded race as a two year old. 8 wins in 9 starts, most impressively, but not nearly against the caliber of horses that Bid faced at 2.

Bid- 7 wins in 9 starts. Mind you this included 3 Grade 1s, 1 Grade 2, and 1 Grade 3. Let's add in a dash of two track records(as a two year old) at distances of 5 1/2 and 8 1/2 furlongs. Incredibly versatile there was no distance he couldn't win at. As a two year old in September he ran 7 furlongs in 1:20 and 4! Ridiculous.

At 3----Edge Secretariat
Secretariat 9 wins out of 12 starts. Gaudy speed numbers in the Triple Crown races. Lost the Wood, lost the Whitney and lost the Gold Cup to horses he should've beaten. Mind you every horse has an off day. So be it. His Belmont is probably the best single race ever run. I can go with that, except that I have a problem for how it is remembered. The time and the amount he's won by is often talked about. The horses he faced simply stopped. Not one ran on at all. If you want to go by times, let's take a Point Given time of 2:26 and change and he finishes 10 lengths behind Secretariat. Does the performance look quite so dazzling then? Of course not. Graded stakes look: Sec. 4 Grade 1s 2 Grade 2s, 1 Grade 3.

Spectac- 10 wins in 12 starts. Two track records vs. 3 for Sec that year, understood Sec's were also in bigger spots. Everyone knows the tack story by now, so a Triple Crown denomination is whatever you want it to be. Brillant speed, rating ability and his loss to Affirmed looks a bit better than a loss to Onion, no? Grade 1s 6 wins, Grade 2 1 win, Grade 3 1 win. I can go with Sec getting the slight nod as a 3 yr old but the idea that there can't even be a debate is ridiculous.

At 4- Edge, oh wait, there was no 4 for Secretariat, is that his fault, of course not, but doing things as an older horse matters to me if you want to be considered the best horse of all-time. I'd venture to guess no horse in memory has a better 4 yr old season than Spectacular Bid. But lets look at the numbers. Give me another horse that gets a track record at 7 furlongs and then 10 furlongs at the same track, at the same meet. By the way the 1:57 clocking is I believe still standing to this day at Santa Anita, actually is the fastest at any track in history I believe. Mind you that 1:57 was "in hand." I would hate to see if they let him run. How about 1:45 at Hollywood, and 1:46 at Arlington. Secretariat never got the chance to go out west, maybe he would've wiped the floor with them, maybe he wouldn't, the consistency of the tracks is surely different....What happens if they meet, who the hell knows. I would say that Spec speed would've been a definite advantage over a come from behind type. But we'll never know.

Bid- Champion 2 year old, 3 year old, 4 yr old horse of the year----consistently the best horse of his generation each year he raced.

9 races, 9 wins. 5 Grade 1s, 3 Grade 2s, 1 Grade 3.

Lifetimes: Sec.- 21 starts 16 wins, 3 seconds, 1 3rd.
Bid - 30 starts 26 wins, 2 seconds, 1 3rd.

Now comparisons like this are inherently difficult to make and before I did the research the last few years, I too drank the Sec. Kool Aid that you would go to hell if you doubted Sec was the greatest horse ever. I guess it matter how you judge individual performances vs. an entire career. The career isn't that close to me, Bid's was far more complete,(save that Sec.'s turf starts which Bid never did) Again, racing as an older horse matters to me.

But let's be clear Bold B and the other haters, you can question whether you agree with my opinion and I'd guess 90% of people don't agree with me on here which is fine. But don't question that I don't know my sh.it again! Randall
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  #2  
Old 10-09-2006, 07:11 PM
oracle80
 
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I've researched it myself, and always felt the same way about the Bid.
I don't care what flak I take, he was the best horse who ever looked through a bridle, just like his trainer said.
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  #3  
Old 10-09-2006, 07:12 PM
oracle80
 
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One other thing, his 1:57 was 20 lengths better than the "wonderhorse" everyone is so hyped up about. Bernadini couldn't have gotten Spectacular Bid into a sweat, he would have disposed of him like a dirty diaper.
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  #4  
Old 10-09-2006, 07:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by oracle80
I've researched it myself, and always felt the same way about the Bid.
I don't care what flak I take, he was the best horse who ever looked through a bridle, just like his trainer said.
I second that.
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  #5  
Old 10-09-2006, 07:13 PM
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Cannon Shell Cannon Shell is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by randallscott35

Secretariat didn't race in a single, not one, graded race as a two year old.
You may know your sh!t but you didn't know that Secretariat predated grading of races hence he couldn't have won any graded races because they did not exist yet.
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  #6  
Old 10-09-2006, 07:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by oracle80
One other thing, his 1:57 was 20 lengths better than the "wonderhorse" everyone is so hyped up about. Bernadini couldn't have gotten Spectacular Bid into a sweat, he would have disposed of him like a dirty diaper.
Comparing raw times on different coasts 26 years apart is not really very scientific is it?
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  #7  
Old 10-09-2006, 07:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cannon Shell
You may know your sh!t but you didn't know that Secretariat predated grading of races hence he couldn't have won any graded races because they did not exist yet.
Fair enough on the grading of his 2 yr old races only, since his 3yr old ones were all graded. Apologize for that.
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  #8  
Old 10-09-2006, 07:18 PM
oracle80
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cannon Shell
Comparing raw times on different coasts 26 years apart is not really very scientific is it?
No its not, but I believe I read data by one of the sheet companies(TG or Rag) who said he was incredible, and faster than Secretariat.
1:57, even if run DOWNHILL on concrete is damn fast.
How many lengths do you figure ole Bid woulda beat a horse like Wanderin Boy by?
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  #9  
Old 10-09-2006, 07:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by oracle80
No its not, but I believe I read data by one of the sheet companies(TG or Rag) who said he was incredible, and faster than Secretariat.
1:57, even if run DOWNHILL on concrete is damn fast.
How many lengths do you figure ole Bid woulda beat a horse like Wanderin Boy by?
About 25 lengths.
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  #10  
Old 10-09-2006, 07:19 PM
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randallscott35 randallscott35 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cannon Shell
Comparing raw times on different coasts 26 years apart is not really very scientific is it?
Maybe not, but if the number has held up for 26 years, there has to be something to it, not unlike the fact that Sec. number in the Belmont has stood the test of time.
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  #11  
Old 10-09-2006, 07:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by randallscott35
Fair enough on the grading of his 2 yr old races only, since his 3yr old ones were all graded. Apologize for that.
No need to apologize, but I would have thought the Hopeful not being graded would have raised some flags!
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  #12  
Old 10-09-2006, 07:19 PM
oracle80
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pillow Pants
About 25 lengths.
Only 25? I was thinking 30-40.
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  #13  
Old 10-09-2006, 07:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by oracle80
No its not, but I believe I read data by one of the sheet companies(TG or Rag) who said he was incredible, and faster than Secretariat.
1:57, even if run DOWNHILL on concrete is damn fast.
How many lengths do you figure ole Bid woulda beat a horse like Wanderin Boy by?
He might stll be able to beat him!!!
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  #14  
Old 10-09-2006, 07:21 PM
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randallscott35 randallscott35 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by oracle80
No its not, but I believe I read data by one of the sheet companies(TG or Rag) who said he was incredible, and faster than Secretariat.
1:57, even if run DOWNHILL on concrete is damn fast.
How many lengths do you figure ole Bid woulda beat a horse like Wanderin Boy by?
Lol, yes its not fair that Bernie has not met the top boys yet, but again Wanderin Boy and Andromeda's are just plain patsies. Do it in the Cup against the best. Then we can talk.
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  #15  
Old 10-09-2006, 07:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by randallscott35
Maybe not, but if the number has held up for 26 years, there has to be something to it, not unlike the fact that Sec. number in the Belmont has stood the test of time.
157 is an impressive number
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  #16  
Old 10-09-2006, 07:22 PM
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randallscott35 randallscott35 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cannon Shell
No need to apologize, but I would have thought the Hopeful not being graded would have raised some flags!
It should have, I was compiling quickly b/c I was very pissed off by Bold B. LOL, again, an oversight, doesn't change my opinion of the 2 yr old season but surely tightens up the debate at 2.
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  #17  
Old 10-09-2006, 07:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by oracle80
Only 25? I was thinking 30-40.
Depends on how much Shoemaker had to drink the night before.
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  #18  
Old 10-09-2006, 07:23 PM
oracle80
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cannon Shell
157 is an impressive number
That one never gets beat on dirt, NEVER!!!!
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  #19  
Old 10-09-2006, 07:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by randallscott35
Lol, yes its not fair that Bernie has not met the top boys yet, but again Wanderin Boy and Andromeda's are just plain patsies. Do it in the Cup against the best. Then we can talk.
All this talk of Secretariat and Spectacular Bid makes you realize that "the best" aint really very good anymore.
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  #20  
Old 10-09-2006, 07:23 PM
oracle80
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pillow Pants
Depends on how much Shoemaker had to drink the night before.
Ok, so maybe 25 was a better gauge when you factor that in. My apologies.
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