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#41
10-25-2009, 07:30 PM
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__________________
The real horses of the year (1986-2020) Manila, Java Gold, Alysheba, Sunday Silence, Go for Wand, In Excess, Paseana, Kotashaan, Holy Bull, Cigar, Alphabet Soup, Formal Gold, Skip Away, Artax, Tiznow, Point Given, Azeri, Candy Ride, Smarty Jones, Ghostzapper, Invasor, Curlin, Zenyatta, Zenyatta, Goldikova, Havre de Grace, Wise Dan, Wise Dan, California Chrome, American Pharoah, Arrogate, Gun Runner, Accelerate, Maximum Security, Gamine 
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#42
10-25-2009, 07:31 PM
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Remember that when him and Best Pal were racing against each other, Best Pal was a far more experienced and seasoned horse. In my eyes, there was a large gap in talent between those two. And yeah, Dinard was nowhere near the same horse after the injury. It's pretty well established that horses are usually diminished after that injury, which is a testament to how good that horse would have been. To recap, Dinard didn't even debut until opening day of SA. He won by 5 in 109.3. Wheeled back in just two weeks in the Los Feliz, he wins by 6 in 135.3 over the VERY nice Olympio and Formal Dinner! Back a month later, he drops back down to 7f in the San Vicente and loses by a nose to Olympio, while 9 back in third was Scan. Time? 121.2 Three weeks later is the San Rafael. Back again to a mile, he gets a super hard fought win over the vastly underrated Apollo (by a head) with Best Pal also in the photo for third. Eight back to fourth. Time was 135.4. To this day, one of the best races I've ever seen and one of my favorites as well. Next up is the Santa Anita Derby. Another win over Best Pal in 148 flat, this time by a half length. At this point, he's got 4 wins and a tough beat second in 5 starts. This horse was the real deal and almost certainly was better than anything in the East that year. After the injury he made only three starts, all in the Strub series, and that was it. He never won, though he did get a 117 BSF in his last start for running second. That horse was simply great, no ifs ands or buts about it. By the way, your comparison with horses later that decade is irrelevant. If anything, Dinard was right in the middle of a streak where the Santa Anita Derby winner was seemingly cursed. After Sunday Silence won in 89: 1990 Mister Frisky. Almost dies during the triple crown from a throat abscess and never regained his winning ways. 1991 Dinard. See above. 1992 AP Indy. Scratched out of the Ky Derby on that very morning. 1993 Personal Hope. Never really heard from ever again. 1994 Brocco. Couldn't overcome Randy Winnick. Did he ever win again? 1995 Larry the Legend. Won the SA Derby and then didn't run again for like 15 months. 1996 was Cavonnier. I know he barely lost the derby, but wasn't he hurt shortly after that? In that span, I'd say Dinard and Indy were just about as close to locks as you can have in that race, had they not been hurt.
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#43
10-25-2009, 07:33 PM
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The others, well, that's all a tossup to me.
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#45
10-25-2009, 08:14 PM
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You know Im not the biggest Rachel fan, BUT ITS TRUE. She might have won the Triple Crown... She clearly would have won the first 2 legs, especially with QR and IWR out.
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#46
10-25-2009, 09:13 PM
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This thread started as a really good thread and turning into guys just whining about missing live races. The initial post was a really good concept.
I wish I had seen my dog as a puppy. I got her when she was 2 1/2 and now she is 9 and still beautiful. Last edited by Ronnie : 10-25-2009 at 10:11 PM.
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#47
10-25-2009, 10:09 PM
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Further, let's look at strict form with regards to Hansel: Jim Beam: dusts Apollo by open lengths Preakness: dusts Best Pal and Olympio by open lengths That alone is enough to suggest that Hansel would have been a good matchup with Dinard (assuming Dinard was the West's best), and thus negates any suggestion that Dinard was some sort of "lock" in the Derby. Dinard strained some portion of his suspensory ligament roughly 10 days before the Kentucky Derby (3 weeks since the SA Derby) after breezing 6f in 1:18+ at CD. As for Best Pal, perhaps more seasoned, but he was making a somewhat belated 3yo debut (March) and had just 2 preps leading to the Derby. You could argue that Dinard had the advantage with all the recent racing (which may have ultimately been his undoing). As for the SA Derby history, not sure where you going with the curse thing (how would this help your argument that Dinard was a lock in the Derby anyways?), but I was suggesting that Best Pal's runner-up efforts didn't necessarily mean he was not as good as Dinard, but rather a result of "prepping" for a more important contest (which would fall in line with the fact that Best Pal started the season late). Alluding to Silver Charm (who chased Free House), Real Quiet (who chased Artax and Indian Charlie), and Go For Gin (Irgun, Holy Bull) who all ultimately won the Derby was supposed to lend plausability to that scenario. As for AP Indy, it seems contradictory to suggest he was a lock for the Derby as well, when you defend the thinking that Arazi was somehow cheated out of a Derby win (they both were entered for the '92 edition). If Arazi was scratched raceday along AP Indy, who would have been more of a lock?
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#48
10-25-2009, 11:37 PM
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How about the 45.3 and 109.3 splits he set? Or that he shipped to a surface that a lot of horses didn't like back then? Or, maybe coming back in less than four weeks off one of the most gut wrenching performances we've seen out of a sprinter going a mile, that maybe that took something out of him? Or, how about that Apollo, coming off that Dinard loss, never was the same horse again, winning only one time in those last 17 races of his career? This from a horse with four wins and a head loss to Dinard in his first 6 starts??? Get real man! As for Hansel's GREAT three year old form going into the derby: 5th by 11 to Fly So Free in the FOY in a blazing fast 144.1 3rd by 5 to FSF again, in the Florida Derby. Strike the Gold second, a super blazing time of 150.2. Then the 2.5 length win in the Jim Beam in 146.3 for 9f. Nice time, but beat Richman and Wilder Than Ever. Then the romp in the Lexington. 9 length win over Shotgun Harry J. and Speedy Cure in 142.3. Hansel did get sharp there, but against badly overmatched opponents and over lightning fast surfaces. I'll take Dinard please. Quote:
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Nobody at all, except for any idiot who bet Arazi, perhaps, was surprised by that outcome.
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#49
10-26-2009, 11:23 AM
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In recent times it would have been nice to see Afleet Alex compete post-Belmont. His post-Derby performances hinted that Rose had finally figured him out, and even though he was not exactly facing terrific fields in those two races, I would have liked to see him against Flower Alley and Saint Liam in the fall of that year.
Other than that, I would have liked to have seen a nice long movie instead of the 2007 Pacific Classic, and I would have enjoyed seeing a match race this year between Rachel Alexandra and Pepper's Pride.
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#50
10-26-2009, 11:26 AM
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#51
10-26-2009, 11:50 AM
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A. P. Indy was the furthest thing in the world from being a lock to win the Kentucky Derby.
It took him 1:49.25 to win the Santa Anita Derby. On the same exact day and at the same distance, New York reject Another Review won the San Bernadino in 1:47.33 seconds. People will point to the '92 Santa Anita Derby and call it a great race .. because the eventual Horse of the Year won, 2nd place finisher Bertrando would eventually become a champion older male, and 3rd place finisher Casual Lies would finish underneath in triple crown races. However, A. P. Indy was scratched out of his next start. Bertrando didn't run again for almost 9 months after the race. And Casual Lies is your typical grinding bridesmaid.. he only won a single race after the SA Derby, and it was at Golden Gate more than a year later. The '92 SA Derby may have great names attatched to it... but it was a painfully slow race with a couple of fine horses who battled physical issues beating a bridesmaid in dismal time.
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#52
10-26-2009, 12:34 PM
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Except AP Indy somehow managed to win the Peter Pan and the Belmont with your beloved figures 13 and 16 points higher than his 'slow' SA Derby win. Which leads to what I've told you over and over. AP Indy was not a flashy runner and did what was necessary to win. His Peter Pan win was his largest margin of victory, but he was facing crap there. Also, Indy, being trained by a conservative trainer, was highly unlikely to have been at peak fitness for the SA Derby. Have you ever even seen that race??
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#53
10-26-2009, 12:36 PM
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And tell me you aren't dumb enough to actually believe Lil E. Tee was better than Indy. That field for the derby was watered down, and you know it.
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#54
10-26-2009, 01:12 PM
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And, yes, Apollo would have been a monster had Dinard not ripped his heart out (by a head) in the San Rafael. See the '90 California Breeder's Championship for further evidence. Quote:
Just to come back to reality, recall that Hansel ended up a dual classic winner and Eclipse Champion while Best Pal won about a trillion dollars. I guess we don't need to tackle the Preakness, where both of Dinard's archrivals in CA, Olympio and Best Pal couldn't get within 10 lengths of Hansel. Quote:
The claimers that Arazi handled that day, Supermec and River Majesty later came to the States and won or placed in stakes. River Majesty was multiple Group 1 placed to horses like Paradise Creek, Kiris Clown, and Solar Splendor. If pedigree is any indication, Arazi was cut out to be a miler. His 3/4 brother by Rahy (a son of Arazi's sire, the good miler Blushing Groom), Noverre excelled at a mile. His second dam also produced middle distance turf horse, Joyeux Danseur. Perhaps, like Apollo in the Jim Beam, he was simply out of his range. Of course, he never ran into Dinard prior to the Derby.
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#55
10-26-2009, 01:14 PM
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Absolutely. He ran a 106 and 107 in his final two fast track prep races. A. P. Indy ran a 100 and a 95 in his. Not only did Lil E Tee own a figure edge between 4-to-7 lengths over A. P. Indy .. but he also owned a seasoning edge .. having made 4 prior starts in 3 preps to just 2 starts for Ap Indy.   Just because Lil E. Tee was coming into the Derby as a better horse than A. P. Indy ... doesn't mean he was a better horse. A. P. Indy possibly had an issue bothering him in his preps - and with time to recover - he ran to the level of Lil E Tee. Lil E Tee obviously had his physical issues after the Preakness. He didn't race again at age 3 and only made 3 more starts. It's unfair and insane to compare the two based on what they've done as sires. Lil E. Tee is an obscurely bred type who was bought from a 2yo in training sale for just 25K. A. P. Indy is a royally bred type who sold for a staggering $2,900,000 as a yearling.
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#57
10-26-2009, 01:50 PM
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The guy who trained Lil E Tee as a 2yo was stabled next to my father when my father trained horses.
They bought him up after he won a MSW race at Calder by 11.5 lengths.
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#59
10-26-2009, 02:23 PM
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Mike Trivigno trained him at Calder... he was purchased after a big maiden win.
I think Whiting had him near the end of his 2yo season... maybe for a race or two.
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#60
10-26-2009, 03:58 PM
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