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  #41  
Old 11-21-2006, 03:38 PM
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SentToStud SentToStud is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SCUDSBROTHER
He is gunna agree with Oracle,Myself,Doug O'neil,the owners of Thor's Echo,Corey Nakatani,Steve Byk,the owner of FLEET INDIAN,Joey(Ateam,)randallscott35,Lansdon Robbins etc.etc.etc.
Juv...
Street Sense ... rail sure didn't hurt. he looked geared down winning. would have won anyway?
CQ .... 4w,5w
GHunter... steadied, checked, 4wide. who knows?
Scat Daddy... 4wide most of way
Princ Secret... insside speed stopped cold.

http://www.drf.com/drfPDFChartRacesI...=cd1104040.pdf
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  #42  
Old 11-21-2006, 03:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SCUDSBROTHER
He is gunna agree with Oracle,Myself,Doug O'neil,the owners of Thor's Echo,Corey Nakatani,Steve Byk,the owner of FLEET INDIAN,Joey(Ateam,)randallscott35,Lansdon Robbins etc.etc.etc.
Sprint
Thor .... 3w
Friendly... rail trip
Nightmare ...3wide
Bordonaro ... had the inside trip compared to the top 3.

http://www.drf.com/drfPDFChartRacesI...=cd1104060.pdf
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  #43  
Old 11-21-2006, 03:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SCUDSBROTHER
He is gunna agree with Oracle,Myself,Doug O'neil,the owners of Thor's Echo,Corey Nakatani,Steve Byk,the owner of FLEET INDIAN,Joey(Ateam,)randallscott35,Lansdon Robbins etc.etc.etc.
Distaff

Real hard to base any claims of any sort off the Distaff with most of the money breaking down on the track.

All top finishers had inside trips.

http://www.drf.com/drfPDFChartRacesI...=cd1104080.pdf
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  #44  
Old 11-21-2006, 03:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SCUDSBROTHER
He is gunna agree with Oracle,Myself,Doug O'neil,the owners of Thor's Echo,Corey Nakatani,Steve Byk,the owner of FLEET INDIAN,Joey(Ateam,)randallscott35,Lansdon Robbins etc.etc.etc.


Classic
Invasor .... always 3 w, 5 wide stretch
Bern... 4 wide, then wider when making move
Giacomo ... 5 wide to turn. 7-8 wide thereafter.

http://www.drf.com/drfPDFChartRacesI...=cd1104100.pdf

Aside from the Distaff, I just don't see the huge bias so many saw.

This concludes our programming for the day.

Good night and thanks for watching!
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  #45  
Old 11-21-2006, 04:24 PM
SniperSB23 SniperSB23 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SentToStud
Classic
Invasor .... always 3 w, 5 wide stretch
Bern... 4 wide, then wider when making move
Giacomo ... 5 wide to turn. 7-8 wide thereafter.

http://www.drf.com/drfPDFChartRacesI...=cd1104100.pdf

Aside from the Distaff, I just don't see the huge bias so many saw.

This concludes our programming for the day.

Good night and thanks for watching!
Don't you get it though? Everyone is an expert handicapper so if the race didn't turn out like they expected then they need a reason, it couldn't possibly be that they might not have capped the race perfectly, it has to be a bias.

I'm guessing there was probably a little bias, I don't think it was anywhere near as pronounced as people are making it out to be though and did not have a major impact on the outcome of the races.
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  #46  
Old 11-21-2006, 04:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SniperSB23
Don't you get it though? Everyone is an expert handicapper so if the race didn't turn out like they expected then they need a reason, it couldn't possibly be that they might not have capped the race perfectly, it has to be a bias.

I'm guessing there was probably a little bias, I don't think it was anywhere near as pronounced as people are making it out to be though and did not have a major impact on the outcome of the races.
Oh, no,all 5 previous grade 1 winners of a sprint are off the board in the B C Sprint,but you could have seen that pure as f'n snow by capping.The sheets,and every other capping mechanism all pointed to the 5 previous grade 1 winners all being out of the tri in this Grade 1.We are not talking about winning here.I am talking about hitting the board.You're telling me that good handicapping would make it obvious that the previous 5 grade 1 winning sprinters in the race(as well as TM Bling) were gunna run out of the money? You make no sense.ZERO.Deny,like the Churchill Shills that you are,but people who know how to cap,know that track was f'd up.This is what almost always happens when a mistake is made.Deny the obvious.Attack the messenger.The problem is that all the evidence is on one side,It is overwhelming(as I just gave you about n grade 1 winners even hitting the board in the sprint.)No matter what,if you don't want to see it, you will deny the words of trainers who admit they benefitted by a quick inside strip.Why would they say this? Why would ONEIL say it was obvious the inside was the place to be? Why? It makes no sense.All the Churchill Shills can say is that people who lose blame the track surface.Oh,never mind the BC SPRINT Winning trainer also said it.What is your reason for him saying it? Come on.Make some sense, you shills.
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  #47  
Old 11-21-2006, 05:03 PM
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SCUDSBROTHER SCUDSBROTHER is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SentToStud
Sprint
Thor .... 3w
Friendly... rail trip
Nightmare ...3wide
Bordonaro ... had the inside trip compared to the top 3.

http://www.drf.com/drfPDFChartRacesI...=cd1104060.pdf
"On the turn I had so much horse that if I had stayed on the rail much longer I would have run over the ones in front of me," said Nakatani

I don't know how many times I have to give you the man's words.He is on the rail gate to turn,and is running so fast he would trample the others,if he didn't go around them 3 wide.The reason he is full of run while the horses on the outside aren't full of run,is because he has been riding that golden rail the 1st part of the race.Keep denying though.Just like you keep denying you want Israel to get it's a$$ kicked.DENY,DENY.

Last edited by SCUDSBROTHER : 11-21-2006 at 05:10 PM.
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  #48  
Old 11-21-2006, 05:10 PM
Downthestretch55 Downthestretch55 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SCUDSBROTHER
Oh, no,all 5 previous grade 1 winners of a sprint are off the board in the B C Sprint,but you could have seen that pure as f'n snow by capping.The sheets,and every other capping mechanism all pointed to the 5 previous grade 1 winners all being out of the tri in this Grade 1.We are not talking about winning here.I am talking about hitting the board.You're telling me that good handicapping would make it obvious that the previous 5 grade 1 winning sprinters in the race(as well as TM Bling) were gunna run out of the money? You make no sense.ZERO.Deny,like the Churchill Shills that you are,but people who know how to cap,know that track was f'd up.This is what almost always happens when a mistake is made.Deny the obvious.Attack the messenger.The problem is that all the evidence is on one side,It is overwhelming(as I just gave you about n grade 1 winners even hitting the board in the sprint.)No matter what,if you don't want to see it, you will deny the words of trainers who admit they benefitted by a quick inside strip.Why would they say this? Why would ONEIL say it was obvious the inside was the place to be? Why? It makes no sense.All the Churchill Shills can say is that people who lose blame the track surface.Oh,never mind the BC SPRINT Winning trainer also said it.What is your reason for him saying it? Come on.Make some sense, you shills.
Scuds,
All anyone needs to do is go back to the page that happened when we were talking about the races on BC day.
You saw what was happening and said so.
Though some might wish to deny, your observations were correct.
You saw what was happening, Steve also told about the scraping.
All the rest is excuses.
DTS
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  #49  
Old 11-21-2006, 05:21 PM
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The thing I'm so confused about is the uproar about the inside of the track being scraped -- and Lehr stating that they do that every day before the races. So why is that the smoking gun?

I still don't think there was a bias -- but if we're going to quote Andy Beyer like he has any clue on earth what he's talking about -- then by all means Lehr's words count just as much...which brings us right back to a stalemate. I'm not exactly about to tout the post-race analysis of a guy who couldn't pick the winner of a race by watching the replay.

Scuds -- I still don't see what Nakatani's quote from Thor's Echo has to do with anything. He had to maneuver out around the turn because he was moving too fast. So what? If the rail was such a godsend -- why did he have to move outside at all? He shouldn't have been about to run over those in front of him, as the horses in front of him should have been going just as fast, considering they were.....on the rail, right?? Why was he faster and more explosive on their outside in winning the race? You're using reverse logic -- that quote shows nothing at all.
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  #50  
Old 11-21-2006, 05:30 PM
Downthestretch55 Downthestretch55 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by brianwspencer
The thing I'm so confused about is the uproar about the inside of the track being scraped -- and Lehr stating that they do that every day before the races. So why is that the smoking gun?

I still don't think there was a bias -- but if we're going to quote Andy Beyer like he has any clue on earth what he's talking about -- then by all means Lehr's words count just as much...which brings us right back to a stalemate. I'm not exactly about to tout the post-race analysis of a guy who couldn't pick the winner of a race by watching the replay.

Scuds -- I still don't see what Nakatani's quote from Thor's Echo has to do with anything. He had to maneuver out around the turn because he was moving too fast. So what? If the rail was such a godsend -- why did he have to move outside at all? He shouldn't have been about to run over those in front of him, as the horses in front of him should have been going just as fast, considering they were.....on the rail, right?? Why was he faster and more explosive on their outside in winning the race? You're using reverse logic -- that quote shows nothing at all.
Brian,
Go to the top of the page, click on page 17. Read what Scuds said on that day.
He shared his analysis while it was happening.
After it happened, seems to me like many have eithr questions or excuses.
Listen to Scuds. He saw it and said so.
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  #51  
Old 11-21-2006, 05:31 PM
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Cannon Shell Cannon Shell is offline
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I still don't understand what the big deal is about the whole controversy? Do any of you people have any connection to a horse that was supposedly screwed? If you lost money betting then it was your fault for not figuring out how to bet this supposedly huge bias. Bias, percieved or not happen every day in this sport because of a number of conditions beyond the control of anyone. I mean if the wind is blowing out at Wrigley do they cancel the game because its unfair to the pitchers? Who really gives a damn about who won the Breeders Cup races. They are over, great for the winners, too bad for the losers, move on.
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  #52  
Old 11-21-2006, 05:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Downthestretch55
Brian,
Go to the top of the page, click on page 17. Read what Scuds said on that day.
He shared his analysis while it was happening.
After it happened, seems to me like many have eithr questions or excuses.
Listen to Scuds. He saw it and said so.
fair.

but i didn't see it. and i'm saying so. so what's your point?
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  #53  
Old 11-21-2006, 06:11 PM
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The surface really threw me off my game. However, any horse in the BC can win. Any horse. If the inside was that great, how did INVASOR win the Classic?
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  #54  
Old 11-21-2006, 06:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TeddyRex
The surface really threw me off my game. However, any horse in the BC can win. Any horse. If the inside was that great, how did INVASOR win the Classic?
He was a highly superior animal to those he was facing.
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  #55  
Old 11-21-2006, 06:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TeddyRex
The surface really threw me off my game. However, any horse in the BC can win. Any horse. If the inside was that great, how did INVASOR win the Classic?
I think you bring up a good point about it being BC day, and many are forgetting that. BC day is the only day of the year where throwing out multiple GI winners sometimes makes sense -- GI winners running up the track is nothing new on BC day, so that argument is also pretty worthless in any discussion of bias. As if longshots running huge races and horses cracking the trifecta that shouldn't is somehow a 2006-only phenomenon
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  #56  
Old 11-21-2006, 06:17 PM
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I think the bias was less evident as the day went on. But I would have to be Ray Charles to miss the fact that there was one to begin with.
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  #57  
Old 11-21-2006, 06:17 PM
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I can't wait for all those good races this weekend that can help end the breeders cup hangover.
I know its slow now, we are in between Tri Crown season and BC season, but it will be nice to put this one to bed.

How about that Discreet Cat and Nobiz Like Showbiz huh?
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  #58  
Old 11-21-2006, 06:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cannon Shell
I still don't understand what the big deal is about the whole controversy? Do any of you people have any connection to a horse that was supposedly screwed? If you lost money betting then it was your fault for not figuring out how to bet this supposedly huge bias. Bias, percieved or not happen every day in this sport because of a number of conditions beyond the control of anyone. I mean if the wind is blowing out at Wrigley do they cancel the game because its unfair to the pitchers? Who really gives a damn about who won the Breeders Cup races. They are over, great for the winners, too bad for the losers, move on.
I agree about the gambling(as far as an inside bias goes.)The problem is that they pimp this thing all year,and then they don't really give a sht about giving the connections of these horses a fair race track.I don't understand why people don't give a sht that the 5 previous grade 1 winners in the sprint
aren't on the board.You simply can't say the track is fair when that many consistent horses don't fire.There are 4 very consistent horses in there that are almost always on the board in graded sprints.That race is like "the "control" in a science experiment. The control results aren't within the acceptable range.I know that track was total crap.This attitude of "who cares who wins the races on the biggest day of the year" is very odd to me.These people may only have 1 chance in their life to race a horse in the B.C...Not only that,but these jocks count on this one day of the year,and you're telling me that you could really give a sht about if the track is anywhere near fair? I don't get that.
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  #59  
Old 11-21-2006, 06:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by brianwspencer
The thing I'm so confused about is the uproar about the inside of the track being scraped -- and Lehr stating that they do that every day before the races. So why is that the smoking gun?

I still don't think there was a bias -- but if we're going to quote Andy Beyer like he has any clue on earth what he's talking about -- then by all means Lehr's words count just as much...which brings us right back to a stalemate. I'm not exactly about to tout the post-race analysis of a guy who couldn't pick the winner of a race by watching the replay.

Scuds -- I still don't see what Nakatani's quote from Thor's Echo has to do with anything. He had to maneuver out around the turn because he was moving too fast. So what? If the rail was such a godsend -- why did he have to move outside at all? He shouldn't have been about to run over those in front of him, as the horses in front of him should have been going just as fast, considering they were.....on the rail, right?? Why was he faster and more explosive on their outside in winning the race? You're using reverse logic -- that quote shows nothing at all.
The quote has to be given time and again,because people constantly say that Thor's Echo wasn't on the rail.Well he was on the rail,and Nakatani didn't want to get off the rail.He had to get off it.You'll see him try to get back to the rail later in the race.He moves back over towards it.He and Oneil know it was a golden rail.They have said it was a golden rail,but it seems to go right through you people.Yes,Bordonaro was down towards the rail,but again,if you ever simply listen to the connections of horses,you won't have to ask why Thor has to go around him.Patrick said the horse never got ahold of that track at all.See,they had 2 problems that day:

1)Golden Rail

2)a ton of horses could not get ahold of that track that day.QLM was the 1st to show how crappy that track was,but there are gunna be a lot,lot more,and this is gunna be a well documented piece of crap track.
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  #60  
Old 11-21-2006, 07:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SCUDSBROTHER
The quote has to be given time and again,because people constantly say that Thor's Echo wasn't on the rail.Well he was on the rail,and Nakatani didn't want to get off the rail.He had to get off it.You'll see him try to get back to the rail later in the race.He moves back over towards it.He and Oneil know it was a golden rail.They have said it was a golden rail,but it seems to go right through you people.Yes,Bordonaro was down towards the rail,but again,if you ever simply listen to the connections of horses,you won't have to ask why Thor has to go around him.Patrick said the horse never got ahold of that track at all.See,they had 2 problems that day:

1)Golden Rail

2)a ton of horses could not get ahold of that track that day.QLM was the 1st to show how crappy that track was,but there are gunna be a lot,lot more,and this is gunna be a well documented piece of crap track.
Our assessments of that quote just don't match up, and I'm okay with saying that. I think it shows nothing.

And QLM was the first horse to show that: running from the back of the pack in a race in which the best horse got to set a dawdling pace on the front end while getting zero pressure from the second best horse in the race who was coincidentally running second -- is NOT the way you win any race, let alone the Breeder's Cup. Again, no point at all here.
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