Manny

[Mortimer]

Originally Posted by ARyan

I would take him over "Lugo for 4" anyday.

ror!!..but who is that?




Here's Jhonny has to be the worst fielding ss in baseball.

[ARyan]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

The fact that Pujols strikes out far less than both probably helps too.

Agreed.

I just can't get over how many clutch hits Ortiz has (Sox fan or not). He just wins or puts them back into so many games. Without him, there would have been no Ring, and far less if any playoff appearances. He is just clutch. That puts him #1 in my book, but I have no arguement with anyone putting Pujols #1. ARod shouldn't crack the top 2. Like it or not, his October performances should be looked at when talking about the best hitters in the game.

[horseofcourse]

Originally Posted by Mortimer

ror!!..but who is that?




Here's Jhonny has to be the worst fielding ss in baseball.

Here's Jhonny worst?? Not even close. He's easily top 15 in the game without question. c'mon Mr Cleveland you can't be falling for the Peralta bad defense hype perpetrated by everyone...You should be able to see through that easily. Great?? no...but very competent. His range limitations have been greatly exaggereated for years. HE gets to plenty of balls. the stats bear this out.

[ARyan]

Originally Posted by Mortimer

ror!!..but who is that?




Here's Jhonny has to be the worst fielding ss in baseball.

Hot Dog Don aka "Lugo for 4" and Jhonny would have to battle it out for that title. What do you think the over/under on combined hits or errors are for them this ALCS?

[whodey17]

Originally Posted by ARyan

Agreed.

I just can't get over how many clutch hits Ortiz has (Sox fan or not). He just wins or puts them back into so many games. Without him, there would have been no Ring, and far less if any playoff appearances. He is just clutch. That puts him #1 in my book, but I have no arguement with anyone putting Pujols #1. ARod shouldn't crack the top 2. Like it or not, his October performances should be looked at when talking about the best hitters in the game.

Why should Arod's Oct numbers factor into the equation. A month's work doesnt make a season. But if you want to include them, how about his .313 in 97 ALDS, .308 in the 00 ALDS, .409 in the 00 ALCS, .421 in the 04 ALDS? The you can look at Ortiz, .231 in the 02 ALDS, .095 in the 03 ALDS, .269 in the 03 ALCS. Point being that the best of the best have cold and hot streaks at any point in the season. And think of this, Arod is only about 2000 hits away from breaking Pete Rose's all time hits record. If he plays (Arod) 12 more years, he has a real shot at passing Rose.

[ARyan]

Originally Posted by whodey17

Why should Arod's Oct numbers factor into the equation. A month's work doesnt make a season.

Maybe because its the playoffs and he disappears...

How many homers and RBI's in April and May really matter? You tell me the last home run in April that carried a team to a playoff win...

I think ARod is #3, no way I would put him above Pujols or Ortiz.

[Mortimer]

Originally Posted by horseofcourse

Here's Jhonny worst?? Not even close. He's easily top 15 in the game without question. c'mon Mr Cleveland you can't be falling for the Peralta bad defense hype perpetrated by everyone...You should be able to see through that easily. Great?? no...but very competent. His range limitations have been greatly exaggereated for years. HE gets to plenty of balls. the stats bear this out.

Gosh sir...maybe it's a matter of perception.



I see a very slow guy who just doesn't have range...great arm...but no range ...and sloooow. If They don't move him and put Cabrera at short ..then I give up. Cabrera is the next Vizquel.Frankly I think Cabrera should be at short now....and I'D sit Peralta......I really would ...at the very least when Carmona and Westbrooks are pitching.



Don't forget all of Here's Jhonny Boneheads base running blunders.



I mean how do you get picked off first with the bases loaded!!?

[whodey17]

Originally Posted by ARyan

Maybe because its the playoffs and he disappears...

How many homers and RBI's in April and May really matter? You tell me the last home run in April that carried a team to a playoff win...

I think ARod is #3, no way I would put him above Pujols or Ortiz.

I am sure the Mets would have loved to have a couple of home runs in April to wins some games this past season.

[Mortimer]

Originally Posted by ARyan

Hot Dog Don aka "Lugo for 4" and Jhonny would have to battle it out for that title. What do you think the over/under on combined hits or errors are for them this ALCS?

I admit to only following the Indians...so I don't know this guy,but with Peralta being one of any 2 ss's in a series......I think that's a great over considering errors...and mental mistakes ( bonehead type)....as getting picked off first with the bases loaded.

[ARyan]

Originally Posted by whodey17

I am sure the Mets would have loved to have a couple of home runs in April to wins some games this past season.

Too bad they didn't give ARod a private plane, a lux box, and his own office at Shea...

Maybe then they could have lost in the NLDS just like the Yanks did with ARod's help...

[horseofcourse]

Originally Posted by Mortimer

Gosh sir...maybe it's a matter of perception.



I see a very slow guy who just doesn't have range...great arm...but no range ...and sloooow. If They don't move him and put Cabrera at short ..then I give up. Cabrera is the next Vizquel.Frankly I think Cabrera should be at short now....and I'D sit Peralta......I really would ...at the very least when Carmona and Westbrooks are pitching.



Don't forget all of Here's Jhonny Boneheads base running blunders.



I mean how do you get picked off first with the bases loaded!!?

Wow...one example of a base running blunder. good. 11th in fielding percentage, 6th in range factor, 4th in assists, 2nd in put outs, 2nd in total chances, 6th in douuble plays, 14th in errors. I think it a matter of perception. He is ranked 21st in zone rating which backs up his "lack" of range, but that is a bit of a subjective number. His flat numbers are quite good defensively. In all honesty he is a quite competent, above average defensive shortstop.

So you would bench Peralta who had the best at bats of anyone on the team in post season and play Barfield?? You are a bit of a mystery.

[ARyan]

Originally Posted by whodey17

Why should Arod's Oct numbers factor into the equation. A month's work doesnt make a season. But if you want to include them, how about his .313 in 97 ALDS, .308 in the 00 ALDS, .409 in the 00 ALCS, .421 in the 04 ALDS? The you can look at Ortiz, .231 in the 02 ALDS, .095 in the 03 ALDS, .269 in the 03 ALCS. Point being that the best of the best have cold and hot streaks at any point in the season. And think of this, Arod is only about 2000 hits away from breaking Pete Rose's all time hits record. If he plays (Arod) 12 more years, he has a real shot at passing Rose.

How nice of you to leave out ARod's 2006 playoff...what a slugger he was that series! .071 avg & obp! Hey, wow, he did have a good ALDS in 2004, but what happend to him in the ALCS? I think I forgot, can you remind me?

Wish him well in LA...


Just to show you...

Career Postseason Stats

ARod - .279 avg, 7 HRs, 9 2B's, 0 3B's, 17 RBI's, .361 OBP in 39 games
Ortiz - .320 avg, 10 HR's, 10 2B;s, 1 3B, 35 RBI's, .417 OBP in 41 games

ARod's teams are 3 wins, 7 losses in 10 post season series...
Ortiz's teams are 6 wins 3 losses in 9 postseason series...

[whodey17]

Originally Posted by ARyan

How nice of you to leave out ARod's 2006 playoff...what a slugger he was that series! .071 avg & obp! Hey, wow, he did have a good ALDS in 2004, but what happend to him in the ALCS? I think I forgot, can you remind me?

Wish him well in LA...

Again, players have good and bad post seasons. Even babe Ruth batted .118 in the 22 World Series. The 3 people we are talking about are so good that is it almost impossible to seperate them.

[Mortimer]

Originally Posted by horseofcourse

Wow...one example of a base running blunder. good. 11th in fielding percentage, 6th in range factor, 4th in assists, 2nd in put outs, 2nd in total chances, 6th in douuble plays, 14th in errors. I think it a matter of perception. He is ranked 21st in zone rating which backs up his "lack" of range, but that is a bit of a subjective number. His flat numbers are quite good defensively. In all honesty he is a quite competent, above average defensive shortstop.

So you would bench Peralta who had the best at bats of anyone on the team in post season and play Barfield?? You are a bit of a mystery.

Yes...I would have done this thing long before the reg. season ended.


I'm not sure where all of this numbers come from or how they are calculated.

The guy was horrible last year and even Wegde and Shapiro admitted that.



They got him up a little for this season......but you can't go from horrible to above average...can you? I see a sub par ss.....who also loves to lead or be near the top in so's.

I'd have Sizemore in left field,too, and Frank G. in center since he is by the overwhelming majority of Indians thinkers thier very best def. outfielder and a natural cf guy.Maybe runners will stop flying from first to thrid with great fequency then.

I happen to think def. first in any sport...and up the mid. def. in bb is very important in my mind.





I saw most of the Yankee series....if you can't see his deficiencies displayed in that series...then I'll say you win this one.

[horseofcourse]

Originally Posted by Mortimer

Yes...I would have done this thing long before the reg. season ended.


I'm not sure where all of this numbers come from or how they are calculated.

The guy was horrible last year and even Wegde and Shapiro admitted that.



They got him up a little for this season......but you can't go from horrible to above average...can you? I see a sub par ss.....who also loves to lead or be near the top in so's.

I'd have Sizemore in left field,too, and Frank G. in center since he is by the overwhelming majority of Indians thinkers thier very best def. outfielder and a natural cf guy.Maybe runners will stop flying from first to thrid with great fequency then.

I happen to think def. first in any sport...and up the mid. def. in bb is very important in my mind.





I saw most of the Yankee series....if you can't see his deficiencies displayed in that series...then I'll say you win this one.

In essence, you're wrong. His numbers were fine last year. I saw a ball hit in the hole that Abreu beat out that not one shortstop in baseball not named Troy Tulowitzski could have made an out on if that is the play you are talking about. I saw him make plays on balls up the middle all series long...much better than his opposing shorstop. He was made the scapegoat by Shapiro and Wedge last year when his play was fine compared to the bullpen which was the problem last year. REmember, these great INdian thinkers did not want Fausto Carmona pitching major league baseball this year...it is only through good fortune that Cliff Lee got hurt and despite pitching well, Carmona still got demoted...it was only through good fortune that 4 days after his demotion that Westbrook got hurt allowing him to keep pitching and saving their season.

So I am not completely given to proclamations from the deep thinkers all the time. Shapiro does a good job without question, but he is not infallible. Peralta is a very good player...not flawless...but he hit .467 with a .579 OBP and .667 and 4 walks in 4 games.

But you are in the mode of INdian fans who love to bash Peralta so it is typical...but oh so wrong. REgarding Gutierrez, you generally want your strongest arm in right field to limit baserunning which is where he is. Sizemore is a better fit in center with their current construction. Yuo certainly cannot play an automatic out like Barfield at this time. I would not be totally opposed to playing Cabrera at short and moving Peralta to 3rd. But I'm not sure if Barfield will ever come around to allow that to happen.

[Mortimer]

Originally Posted by horseofcourse

In essence, you're wrong. His numbers were fine last year. I saw a ball hit in the hole that Abreu beat out that not one shortstop in baseball not named Troy Tulowitzski could have made an out on if that is the play you are talking about. I saw him make plays on balls up the middle all series long...much better than his opposing shorstop. He was made the scapegoat by Shapiro and Wedge last year when his play was fine compared to the bullpen which was the problem last year. REmember, these great INdian thinkers did not want Fausto Carmona pitching major league baseball this year...it is only through good fortune that Cliff Lee got hurt and despite pitching well, Carmona still got demoted...it was only through good fortune that 4 days after his demotion that Westbrook got hurt allowing him to keep pitching and saving their season.

So I am not completely given to proclamations from the deep thinkers all the time. Shapiro does a good job without question, but he is not infallible. Peralta is a very good player...not flawless...but he hit .467 with a .579 OBP and .667 and 4 walks in 4 games.

But you are in the mode of INdian fans who love to bash Peralta so it is typical...but oh so wrong. REgarding Gutierrez, you generally want your strongest arm in right field to limit baserunning which is where he is. Sizemore is a better fit in center with their current construction. Yuo certainly cannot play an automatic out like Barfield at this time. I would not be totally opposed to playing Cabrera at short and moving Peralta to 3rd. But I'm not sure if Barfield will ever come around to allow that to happen.

Like I said...you win.


I am having a REALLY hard time thinking about baseball right now.






I enjoyed our fine discussion.

[horseofcourse]

Originally Posted by Mortimer

Like I said...you win.


I am having a REALLY hard time thinking about baseball right now.






I enjoyed our fine discussion.

yes, I know my stuff quite well as you.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by Mortimer

Yes...I would have done this thing long before the reg. season ended.


I'm not sure where all of this numbers come from or how they are calculated.

The guy was horrible last year and even Wegde and Shapiro admitted that.



They got him up a little for this season......but you can't go from horrible to above average...can you? I see a sub par ss.....who also loves to lead or be near the top in so's.

I'd have Sizemore in left field,too, and Frank G. in center since he is by the overwhelming majority of Indians thinkers thier very best def. outfielder and a natural cf guy.Maybe runners will stop flying from first to thrid with great fequency then.

I happen to think def. first in any sport...and up the mid. def. in bb is very important in my mind.





I saw most of the Yankee series....if you can't see his deficiencies displayed in that series...then I'll say you win this one.

Does Peralta make more routine plays close and more close plays base hits by seemingly being in slow motion once he gets to the ball and his release? Seems like he plays every ground ball the same regardless of who is running or regardless of where he fields the ball.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by ARyan

Maybe because its the playoffs and he disappears...

How many homers and RBI's in April and May really matter? You tell me the last home run in April that carried a team to a playoff win...

I think ARod is #3, no way I would put him above Pujols or Ortiz.

I think April wins count the same in the standings as September wins.

[Cannon Shell]

You know Arod would be a good fit in Cleveland...